Psionic Manifester's adding powers

[LiquidBlue]

The exact same argument can be used for most spontaneous casters (which have the same restriction on spells known).


A sorcerer and psion are pretty close in their need to know additional spells/powers, IMO.

It is part of the design trade off for being able to do spontaneous casting/manifesting.

I am really more concerned about the the Wilder. Honestly, a Wilder 20 has 11 powers known. Which means he probably has 2 1st level powers, 1 of all of the other levels, and probably 2 9th level powers.

Expanded Knowledge can help some.

Balance wise what are additional powers known worth? Is the XP cost for researching new powers not sufficient to balance an additional power known?

Psychic Chirurgery breaks the limit on powers known for the cost of 1000XP x lvl of the Power. Is that a more appropriate cost. It is about 5 times the cost of researching a new power, so it seems that balance wise the cost within that ballpark.

 

[irdeggman]

Balance wise what are additional powers known worth? Is the XP cost for researching new powers not sufficient to balance an additional power known?

No way.

For a mere 200 xp a wilder could research a new 1st level power that is augmentable to be the equivalent of a 9th level power (for damage purposes).

Plus the wilder gets that "free" augmentation due to wild surge.

 

[milo]

No one has even mentioned that powers like energy ray and energy ball can be used as fire, cold, sonic, or electricty with no added cost or feats. Psionics are more versatile than spells by far.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

No one has even mentioned that powers like energy ray and energy ball can be used as fire, cold, sonic, or electricty with no added cost or feats. Psionics are more versatile than spells by far.

Frankly, I don't care about that argument because i find it to be utter bs. Any self-respecting Evoker or evocation-focused arcanist is going to plop a feat on Energy Substitution (anything but fire), not to mention it comes in handy metamagic rod form as of MIC. Alternatively, be a sorcerer and take Energy Substitution (fire) (optional, really, the best blasting spells are already fire) +Searing Spell +Practical Metamagic (Searing Spell). Congratulations! You can now fully focus on improving your fire spell potency and nothing aside from enemies with the fire subtype can even resist your damage! Who needs versatility?

You need Draconic Heritage, already a decent route for a sorcerer, to do this. Metamagic Specialist variant also helps, and is also already a good option for a sorcerer.

And yeah, psionic characters can "choose" the energy type to use on the spot. But often that choice is at least partly made up by the other factors. For example, you are NOT going to use energy types that use reflex saves against an enemy with evasion! Sonic loses damage, so it's just a nice last resort. Ultimately, the variety in options just negates the fact that the arcanists know a whole lot more spells than you do powers to begin with. Still doesn't negate that arcanists don't have to keep paying more to increase damage with level. Or (if you're actually acknowledging the changes in CPsi) that when a spell offers no SR, it also typically ignores DR (sorry, crystal shard!).

Rant aside, I still don't think the rule should be read as letting manifesters exceed the powers known cap. It's too good an option. I do think a Wilder needs more than 11 powers known over 20 levels to be functional. IMHO, of course.

 

[milo]

I have used a wilder before to great effect from 1-20. I burned a couple of feats for extra powers, energy missile for one. It scaled pretty well without having to put extra power points into it and just using my wilder ability. Can't remember the exact feat and power selection. I don't think that I needed any more powers. I might be able to find the character sheet and put my power selection on here.

 

[akbearfoot]

Cat fall, hustle, Damp Power, Grip of iron, Psionic Lions charge,strength of my enemy, and precognition offensive and defensive are all low level Psi warrior powers and all fairly common choices...well except maybe catfall and Strength of my enemy.

Other powers can be augmented to last hours per level.


It takes more PSPs? Of course it does. It has to cost something when you can selectively blast a critter with whichever energy you want on demand, and you can get bonus move actions to move and still take full attacks and turn that mages fireball or any other spell or power into 1pt of damage per die save for half.

It a Mage uses his highest level spell slot, he casts it and goes 'well I am out of powerful spells for today'. A Psion uses his highest level power, then he says 'OK four or five more of those and I will start to get low on PSPs'


While we're on the subject, mages who cast spells to do hitpoint damage are really mostly just wasting their actions...energy substitution is really good for sorcerers, but not that great for a wizard or anyone else who prepares spells ahead of time. I certainly wouldn't consider it an automatic choice for an evoker...Sorcerers are weak compared to Wizards because they lack versatility. Psions are also a lot more versatile than sorcerers in general. Wizards have more long term versatility because given time they can prepare for nearly anything. Psions always have their arsenal ready to use.

I can't comment on the wilder class, because I have never seen 1 played, and the picture in the book was so awful that I always just skip the page so I never read it.


Metamagic rods were mentioned as part of an argument to compare balance...items that BREAK the magic system utterly shouldnt be brought up when you are trying to compare things on a scale side by side. Psions spend some gold to buy Dojes and have access to basically any power in the book, beyond their normal powers known....same issue, it can break a game...Same with Bo9S and items that grant maneuvers.....the theme is the same...giving players access to spells of higher level than they should have, or giving them lots more abilities then they were designed to have is a bad idea.

I like psionics a lot, but I also realize how nasty and broken some of it is...like say Ego Whip. At 1000xp per level with the surgery it seems fairly balanced....it won't get out of control until the very late levels where its not so important anyways...when wizards are casting Wish and druids are shapechanging into wyrms and priests are gating in Planetars all bets are off anyways.

 

[irdeggman]

Don't forget that psinics do not suffer ASF nor are they affected bywearing armor.

So even though not proficient with heavy armors you can put a wilder in full plate and not affect his psionic abilities at all. Even though other things are affected his manifesting is not.

 

[Jack Simth]

Don't forget that psinics do not suffer ASF nor are they affected bywearing armor.

So even though not proficient with heavy armors you can put a wilder in full plate and not affect his psionic abilities at all. Even though other things are affected his manifesting is not.

Just avoid any powers that require an attack roll or a touch attack roll....

 

[irdeggman]

Just avoid any powers that require an attack roll or a touch attack roll....

Nope - psionics are specifically not affected by armor period.

If it accentuates a normal melee attack (i.e., empowering a weapon then yes but otherwise no effect).

 

[Jack Simth]

Nope - psionics are specifically not affected by armor period.

If it accentuates a normal melee attack (i.e., empowering a weapon then yes but otherwise no effect).

Do you have a page reference on that?