Psionic Manifester's adding powers

[irdeggman]

Do you have a page reference on that?

From SRD:
it is under the psion description (same place in the book - pg 20) - but the book is written such that a lot of information that applies to every psionic class is placed under the psion - like for instance the astral construct information.

Armor does not, however, interfere with the manifestation of powers.

Combine that with the following (pg 53)

He has no need for messy material components, verbal cues or awkward gestures.

and from the PHB

Nonproficient with Armor Worn: A character who wears armor
and/or uses a shield with which he or she is not proficient takes the
armor’s (and/or shields’s) armor check penalty on attack rolls and on
all Strength-based and Dexterity-based ability and skill checks. The
penalty for nonproficiency with armor stacks with the penalty for
nonprofiency with shields.

IMO the "targeting" is part of the manifesting/casting and not a separate issue it is just resolved via the "attack" method. Otherwise you end up with situations like generating AoO when making a ranged touch attack when casting a spell (or manifesting) in addition to the one generated by casting/manifesting.

And the armor penalty is based un using Str or Dex to make an attack - a power doesn't really rely on that since there are no gestures involved and it purely mental - although it requires concentration which is why concentration checks are required when grappled and the like - although you can always attempt to manifest a power when grappled (only spells without material/somatic components can be attempted).

 

[Jack Simth]

Do note that the Manifestation (or casting) of a power (or spell) is successful regardless of whether or not you actually hit your target. It specifies that armor doesn't interfere with the Manifestation. You're still subject to the penalty to attack rolls, just as you're still subject to the bonus to attack rolls from having a High Dexterity when using such things as Energy Ray. After all, your own quote mentions Attack Rolls completely separately from Dex-based or Strength-based checks.

 

[irdeggman]

Do note that the Manifestation (or casting) of a power (or spell) is successful regardless of whether or not you actually hit your target. It specifies that armor doesn't interfere with the Manifestation. You're still subject to the penalty to attack rolls, just as you're still subject to the bonus to attack rolls from having a High Dexterity when using such things as Energy Ray. After all, your own quote mentions Attack Rolls completely separately from Dex-based or Strength-based checks.

So then you are going with the attack being different than the casting/manfesting so then you are subject to 2 AoO when manfesting/casting a ranged attack power/spell when in a threatened square?

Same logic applies.

I read the statement that armor does not interfere with the manifesting of powers as meaning exactly that and that the attack is part of the manifesting and not something separate.

 

[Thanee]

A character who wears armor
and/or uses a shield with which he or she is not proficient takes the
armor’s (and/or shields’s) armor check penalty on attack rolls...

Seems pretty clear to me.

What kind of attack rolls do you have in mind, that this would not apply to?
Ranged attacks from effect spells and similar powers?


Not entirely sure about the AoO issue, but it could very well be, that two AoO are provoked. The attack is essentially a free action at that point. Compare with Touch Spells... those even specifically say so, with the difference, that you can still continue to attack (as a standard action then), if the first attack fails (or multiple touch attacks are possible from one spell).


As for the original question: The Powers Known and Spells Known both are hard limits. There is no way to improve those numbers, except when specifically noted (i.e. Expanded Knowledge/Extra Spell).

Research is only a means to learn spells or powers that would otherwise be impossible to learn, or create new ones when the DM allows you to do so and agrees with the power level.

Bye
Thanee

 

[irdeggman]

Seems pretty clear to me.

What kind of attack rolls do you have in mind, that this would not apply to?
Ranged attacks from effect spells and similar powers?

I was going with the fact that armor does not affect manifesting powers and that the attack is part of the manifesting - or is it a separate "action".

Not entirely sure about the AoO issue, but it could very well be, that two AoO are provoked. The attack is essentially a free action at that point. Compare with Touch Spells... those even specifically say so, with the difference, that you can still continue to attack (as a standard action then), if the first attack fails (or multiple touch attacks are possible from one spell).

if the attack is a free action then it is part of the manifesting is it not?

Per table 8-2 making a ranged attack while in a threatened square provokes an AoO.

Now if making the attack is not part of the manifesting/casting then there are 2 AoO openings being generated. If it is part of the manifesting/casting then there is only 1.

If it is part of the manifesting/casting then the rules for casting/manifesting apply (as a precedence) and it states that armor does not affect manifesting powers.

Just to point out additional ramifications of not treating the attack as part of the minfesting (or casting). If you manifest/cast defensivel then you would still generate an AoO when making the ranged attack. This happened to me when I was playing in PbP game. My PC successfully manifested energy ray defenesively only to take an AoO from an Ogre. I argued to the DM to no avail on that one - I also pointed out that if that was the "proper" interpretation then any attack roll made by an archer would generate one (so using firing multiple arrows in a round would generate multiple AoO, even though a single action type can ony generate one AoO per opponent).

 

[Michael Silverbane]

Per table 8-2 making a ranged attack while in a threatened square provokes an AoO.

Now if making the attack is not part of the manifesting/casting then there are 2 AoO openings being generated. If it is part of the manifesting/casting then there is only 1.

Just to point out additional ramifications of not treating the attack as part of the minfesting (or casting). If you manifest/cast defensivel then you would still generate an AoO when making the ranged attack. This happened to me when I was playing in PbP game. My PC successfully manifested energy ray defenesively only to take an AoO from an Ogre. I argued to the DM to no avail on that one - I also pointed out that if that was the "proper" interpretation then any attack roll made by an archer would generate one (so using firing multiple arrows in a round would generate multiple AoO, even though a single action type can ony generate one AoO per opponent).

This is more or less how we do it.

The caster/manifester draws only one AoO (because it is a single action), but he draws that AoO regardless of defensive casting if he is making a ranged touch attack.

The archer draws multiple AoOs, because his Full Attack is comprised of multiple separate attack actions. Likewise is a non-ranged fighter attempts multiple trips or sunders during his Full Attack, or attacks with multiple unarmed strikes (all assuming that he does not possess the proper feats, of course), he provokes separate AoOs for each of those attack actions.

 

[Thanee]

I was going with the fact that armor does not affect manifesting powers and that the attack is part of the manifesting - or is it a separate "action".

Let's put it differently...

Psionics do not require somatic components and as such are not hindered by armor. Of course.

Making a ranged attack roll (with a weapon-like spell/power) based on your Dexterity certainly does require movement on your part (we are not talking mental Dexterity here after all) and so should be hindered by armor check penalty if you are not trained in its use.

My PC successfully manifested energy ray defenesively only to take an AoO from an Ogre.

Yeah, that seems kinda silly for sure... but I can see valid arguments for both sides here. However, I would (regardless of what RAW says) let defensive casting/manifesting also include the attack roll. And despite that, I would not consider the attack roll part of the casting/manifesting and as such unhindered by armor.

Bye
Thanee