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Psionics

Dragonhelm

Knight of Solamnia
While I'm a huge fan of psionics, I personally think it should be a modular element. Like maybe in a Psionics Handbook.

The reason I say this is that psionics is not a universally loved element of D&D. It should be there for those who want to use psionics, but it should be optional as many people do not like psionics.
 

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Ahnehnois

First Post
I agree psionics can be successful in the right setting. In Dark Sun it made total sense and worked wonderfully. However I think psionics isn't well suited to be part of the core rules of D&D.
I agree that it's probably best left to the realm of supplements.

I just think it's an important supplement and I hope it's done well.
 
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SlyDoubt

First Post
I don't think psionics are that necessary for the core barebones system of 5E. I think they would be saved for setting specific books because that's where psionics really shine. It's an alternative magic in some sense and it has a very different kind of feeling. Things like 'feeling' and 'style' are more at place when describing a setting, not a set of mechanics.

Dark Sun works because of how magic is presented. It's not just D&D with psionics tacked on. It's a totally different setup from the norm. So psionics can shine there.

So really I'd just rather see 5E Dark Sun :). I was psyched for 4E Dark Sun thinking it would get me into 4E. It did for a time but ultimately the style of the 4E system made running a Dark Sun sandbox game feel kind of odd (especially to a table of all 3.X/PF players).
 

While I'm a huge fan of psionics, I personally think it should be a modular element. Like maybe in a Psionics Handbook.

The reason I say this is that psionics is not a universally loved element of D&D. It should be there for those who want to use psionics, but it should be optional as many people do not like psionics.

Playing Devil's Advocate here...


By that yardstick, 4e was right to leave out the gnome initially. If it's a popularity contest, we're going to end up with a rather truncated game because although there's fans for every single race and class combo, just from anecdotal evidence (and the occasional poll), if it's not a fighter, cleric, wizard, or rogue, the numbers drop off. Same with races. Human, elf, dwarf. Maybe halfling. But even there, you've a significant dropoff. Personally, I despise the dwarves and gnomes. My setting has the former a shadow of their glorious past due to genocidal wars fought between them and the growing human nations. But I built the setting to include them, even though I don't like them. I don't see why one cannot do the same with psionics.

To a large extent, I do see what you're saying. But the logic of the argument is a smaller game with more supplements to 'fill in the blanks' regarding things that were considered core not too long ago. Now, that's fine and dandy. I'll buy 'em. But I've read lots and lots of people moaning about how much they don't like to be "forced" to buy this or that supplement in order to play what one would consider a basic D&D game.

I guess what I'm saying is that if we pare it back too much, we'll lose some of the fan base; those who seem ideologically opposed to buying multiple supplements will balk. I don't know their numbers--probably small but very vocal--but if the goal is to reabsorb the fractured base and, if they're lucky, grow it with new players, every player and DM counts.

There's a balance here. We tend to forget--or ignore in some cases--the fact that WotC is a company and capitalism is our economic system. They must produce a product or die. Period. Dot. There's a cycle they have to go through and when the revenues start to dry, they have to hit the 'reboot' button and start over again. Planned obsolescence is just as much a part of a successful RPG company as it is for the auto industry. They have to do it or you won't have an industry. Video game companies do the same thing. Mass Effect and Dragon Age are great games but the rules have been tweaked only slightly from game to game. Compared to D&D, I'd say they're even more conservative. And yet people snatch up each new game with vim and vigor. That's great. I love that. What I find odd is that we don't give D&D that same benefit of doubt.

But, having said all that, I'm resigned to a Psionics Handbook/Complete Psionics route. I just wish they'd do more for it than simply toss out a couple of books. A module or four would be nice (non-setting specific, of course).
 

I don't think psionics are that necessary for the core barebones system of 5E. I think they would be saved for setting specific books because that's where psionics really shine. It's an alternative magic in some sense and it has a very different kind of feeling. Things like 'feeling' and 'style' are more at place when describing a setting, not a set of mechanics.

Dark Sun works because of how magic is presented. It's not just D&D with psionics tacked on. It's a totally different setup from the norm. So psionics can shine there.

So really I'd just rather see 5E Dark Sun :). I was psyched for 4E Dark Sun thinking it would get me into 4E. It did for a time but ultimately the style of the 4E system made running a Dark Sun sandbox game feel kind of odd (especially to a table of all 3.X/PF players).

You mention the 'feel' issue and I get it. I've struggled with it too. I think it's because we see the term 'psionics' and almost automatically think of science fiction (the Jedi, Vulcans, etc.). There's a bit of a paradigmic jar to that.

I've seen it integrated well--like I mentioned, Julian May's Pliocene Saga--and I've seen it integrated poorly (1e comes to mind).

I'm not certain how to get around it or even if it's possible. Oddly enough, 1e had it as a core--an appendix, yes, but still in the PHB. The only edition to make it core, actually (though the term really had no meaning then).

And then there's the Monk. What else is ki but psionic energy (even though they make a slight differentiation for it in 4e)? We think of the word 'monk' though and run to divine as a power source but as it has been traditionally characterized, the D&D monk is Eastern in flavour and ki is not a divine power source.

Funnily enough, 4e corrected that and made the Monk's power source psionic. Hats off to that.

It's too bad but so long as the 'fantasy and scifi are fundamentally different' memeplex is dominant, I don't think we'll ever solve that 'feeling' problem.
 

SKyOdin

First Post
I still don't get how using your mind to do telekinesis or read others' minds isn't just magic with a different name....

Personally, I think that is more of a problem with how Arcane magic is traditionally done in D&D, rather than a problem with psionics. Unlike divine magic, primal magic, psionics, ki, and so on, Arcane magic isn't given any clear explanation, internal logic, or limitation. Arcane magic comes down to "a wizard did it". As such, it is completely limitless in scope, unfettered by logic or explanation. I think this is a serious problem if you want to have competing power sources and types of magic. The kinds of real world magic traditions that Arcane magic draws inspiration from tend to have much more clearly defined logic and form, usually drawing upon spirits and so forth. If Arcane magic was more nailed down, it would be easier to find niches for power sources such as Psionics.
 

grimslade

Krampus ate my d20s
Ahh the joys of 1E and rolling a 00 to get your Wild talent.
I like how psionics has been incorporated in the last two editions, an additional rules/power source. 2E was a bit wonky. I can see a nice modular option for Psionics and the whole thought eater/ Intellect Devourer/ Illithid/ Githyanki she-bang. It will probably be one of their best selling options.
Psionics needs to be discrete from other forms of magic and powers. The psuedo-psychology names need to stay. Their quirk is their charm. Dr. Sigmund Frodo, halfling psychic chirurgeon and Master of the Ego Whip will rise again.
 

SlyDoubt

First Post
I like mixing them. I specifically like sci-fantasy or whatever you'd like to call it. Like The Book of the New Sun.

I think we're more the minority though and I do think that things work best when one of them seems more normal or standard and the other is kind of special. in dark sun its magic that's 'special' and that makes it more interesting and changes it from just being magic reskinned.

If both are equally represented in a world though, I don't think it's all that interesting. In fiction it certainly could be, but as a game I don't really think so.

There's hope though definitely. We don't know what the future holds.
 

howandwhy99

Adventurer
To what degree should psionics be incorporated into 5e?

I've got it. You have to qualify for psionics. Cause it's rare, see? Let's say you need a 16 or higher in the prime stat for your class. If you rolled for ability scores, then you're already pretty rarefied. Now roll a 10% chance (or a little more if higher than 16) to optionally swap out class abilities for class-specific psionic abilities instead. Maybe you even roll every level gained for the option to do so? Now we're talking about psionics as an uncommon ability almost never encountered.

That's one way anyways.
 

trancejeremy

Adventurer
As I've said before, the whole SF-Fantasy divide is a relatively recent (and artificial) construction.

Probably the first really popular type of fantasy adventure was "planetary romance" - basically stuff like John Carter of Mars. Telepathy and the like played a big role in those books (as opposed to magic).

It's not a popular genre today, but it still was in the '60s, when it fell out of favor.
 

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