Desdichado
Hero
Shadowrun also isn't cyberpunk; it just has a few trappings of cyberpunk. Back in the late 80s/early 90s I read a lot of the fiction that was true cyberpunk. I never thought Shadowrun really exemplified it at all.Tsyr said:
Punk
Desdichado
Hero
I actually didn't fail to provide my own definition, so I'm confused as why it's being claimed I did. Granted, my definition was pretty short, but hey, I'm concise! 
And MM, I wasn't trying to sound like I was dissing your interpretation of it; merely that I definately disagree that only the protagonists see the status quo as bad; it's certainly a strong feature of the genre that the status quo is, like I said, a heel-grinding, exploitative and selfish vehicle of the upper classes -- the corporate world and a faceless government. The lower classes are intentionally shut out and left in a kind of hellish and anarchic urban dystopia.
The roots of npunk as a literary genre are only partially tied to the punk rock music scene, or even the values of the original punks, for that matter. I would agree that style over substance was a certain attitude of the music punks, but it was never really true of Gibson's work (although whether it was true of Gibson's characters is another question entirely.)
As to whether other genres like steampunk or gothic-punk actually even exist or not is kinda debatable. There is so little in terms of steampunk available (Perdido Street Station and the Difference Engine are about the only even somewhat widely known works that would qualify) that the genre can hardly be said to have been established with true conventions and whatnot. And adding -punk on the end of something else, such as White Wolf's gothic-punk is just trying to associate the games with a nihilistic, kewl (as opposed to cool) term.
And MM, I wasn't trying to sound like I was dissing your interpretation of it; merely that I definately disagree that only the protagonists see the status quo as bad; it's certainly a strong feature of the genre that the status quo is, like I said, a heel-grinding, exploitative and selfish vehicle of the upper classes -- the corporate world and a faceless government. The lower classes are intentionally shut out and left in a kind of hellish and anarchic urban dystopia.
The roots of npunk as a literary genre are only partially tied to the punk rock music scene, or even the values of the original punks, for that matter. I would agree that style over substance was a certain attitude of the music punks, but it was never really true of Gibson's work (although whether it was true of Gibson's characters is another question entirely.)
As to whether other genres like steampunk or gothic-punk actually even exist or not is kinda debatable. There is so little in terms of steampunk available (Perdido Street Station and the Difference Engine are about the only even somewhat widely known works that would qualify) that the genre can hardly be said to have been established with true conventions and whatnot. And adding -punk on the end of something else, such as White Wolf's gothic-punk is just trying to associate the games with a nihilistic, kewl (as opposed to cool
) term.
Desdichado
Hero
And of course you're free to. I generally speak with "authority" because that's just my style, not because I necessarily think I'm the be-all end-all expert in the field. Having read a considerable amount of cyberpunk, as I mentioned earlier, and having been associated with folks who really know science fiction genre splitting, having read the works of professionals in the literary criticism field, and writing professionals as well, I think I know what I'm talking about. That doesn't mean I didn't miss something. But, as you tried to pin me with earlier, I haven't yet seen your alternative. At least not in terms of how I'm wrong.
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Emiricol
Registered User
Joshua Dyal said:
Your qualifications are far from unique, frankly, and I don't find the fact that you "associated" with folks who "really know" their stuff to be very compelling. That you read a book by a critic, less so. Your authoritative tone being just your way is something I hadn't considered, so thank you for clearing that up. It makes it chafe less.
In any case, I'm not any more interested in a flame-out than you are. I posted my take on the actual subject of this thread already, so at this point I'll just have to sign off and hope we can leave it well enough alone, or take it to email. Either way, you've gotten me to make a longer post than I think I ever have before, outside the PbP stuff
You can reach me at emiricol-at-hotmail.com, among other places.
Shadowdancer
First Post
I remember once buying a paperback novel -- this was mid-90s -- with a jacket blurb claiming it was among the first of the new horror subgenre splatterpunk. For the life of me, I can't remember the name of the book, the author, or even if I ever read the damn thing. I do seem to remember the blurb also mentioned Clive Barker.
But I've always associated the word "punk" tacked onto some type of literary genre/subgenre descriptor as meaning "rebellious," as in the characters are rebels against societal norms (real or imagined) and the writing is edgy and rebelling against the usually constraints of the genre.
Your mileage, however, may vary.
But I've always associated the word "punk" tacked onto some type of literary genre/subgenre descriptor as meaning "rebellious," as in the characters are rebels against societal norms (real or imagined) and the writing is edgy and rebelling against the usually constraints of the genre.
Your mileage, however, may vary.
Aitch Eye
First Post
Joshua Dyal said:As to whether other genres like steampunk or gothic-punk actually even exist or not is kinda debatable. There is so little in terms of steampunk available (Perdido Street Station and the Difference Engine are about the only even somewhat widely known works that would qualify) that the genre can hardly be said to have been established with true conventions and whatnot. And adding -punk on the end of something else, such as White Wolf's gothic-punk is just trying to associate the games with a nihilistic, kewl (as opposed to cool
You left out The Anubis Gates as a "somewhat widely known" work that would qualify. It was specifically one of the novels the term was coined to describe (by K.W. Jeter, the other novels were his own Morlock Night and James Blaylock's Homunculus), though it really doesn't fit the current popular view of it as necessarily having a lot of clunky Victorian retro-tech. Which ties into your comment about whether it's evolved its own genre conventions, though author influences ought to be taken into account as well. The term is used somewhat loosely now that it's getting more well-known, and it's hard to tell whether it should really be applied to alternate histories that have the physical trappings but a more mainstream attitude (like L.E. Modessit Jr's "Ghost" trilogy) or literary pastiches that have some of the attitude (like the comic version of The League of Extrordinary Gentlemen...though really, Morlock Night would fall into this category as well).
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