Question on true strike and cleave ...

[Feliks]

OK. I play a Human fighter4/sorcerer1. As one of my spells I took truestrike. The text for this spell states that the next single strike gains a +20 bonus. As a fighter I have cleave and the text there states that the cleave attack is at the same bonus as the one that dropped the previous opponent. Which way do I go here? Does the cleave attack also get the +20 bonus? I think that that would be too powerful personally and screw up the game balance.

What say the hive mind?

 

[Felix]

Cleave
The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature.

True Strike
The character's next single attack roll (if it is made before the end of the next round) gains a +20 insight bonus. Additionally, the character is not affected by the miss chance that applies to attacks against a concealed target.

Ok. Here's what happens. You gain +20 to hit on your attack yielding a +21 to attack and you kill the sod. The spell True Strike goes away. Cleave kicks in. Cleave looks at the attack bonus of your previous strike and says "Hey, I had a +21 to hit. I've a +21 to hit again!"

So yes, you do have the benefit of a +20 to hit on the cleave attack, but not by virtue of the spell True Strike but rather by virtue of the feat Cleave.

 

[Otterscrubber]

Makes sense to me, its a strong combo, especially with Power Attack.

 

[jgsugden]

You could go either way, actually. The true strike text says 1 attack roll. The cleave feat says at the same bonus as the attack roll that felled an opponent. These are a direct conflict. I disgaree that you can preserve the effect via cleave *and* end the effect via true strike at the same time as the prior poster suggested.

For balance purposes, you should probably go with the interpretation that you only get the bonus on the initial attack, but not on the cleave attack. Combined with power attack, a high level fighter with great cleave and true strike could drop a lot of enemies in a single round by taking a -15 to hit and getting an extra +30 to damage. A bit too strong.

 

[Hypersmurf]

From the 3E Main FAQ:

If you use the true strike spell and you get a threat, does
the +20 bonus from the apply to the critical confirmation
roll? Would the +20 bonus apply to the extra attacks you
get from the Cleave, Great Cleave, or Whirlwind attack
feats?
When you roll to confirm a critical, you use whatever
bonuses applied to the attack roll that made the threat, no
matter where those bonuses came from.
True strike affects only one attack. (Rolling to confirm a
critical is not a separate attack for this purpose.) If you make
multiple attacks in a round, your bonus from true strike applies
only to the first attack you make, no matter how you managed
to get multiple attacks.

In the Cleave feat, the phrase "at the same bonus" distinguishes it from other feats which grant an extra attack "at your highest base attack bonus".

If you have a BAB of +6/+1, and you drop an opponent with your first attack, then the Cleave is calculated using the +6 and any applicable modifiers. If you drop an opponent with your second attack, then the Cleave is calculated using the +1 and any applicable modifiers.

Since True Strike discharges on your first attack, it is not an applicable modifier to the Cleave attack.

Likewise, if I am Paladin making a mounted charge and Smiting Evil at a hobgoblin with my Goblinbane sword, then I have:

+6: BAB
+2: Strength bonus
+2: Charging
+4: Smite Evil
+1: Enhancement bonus
+2: Bane bonus
+1: Higher Ground bonus

Total: +18.

I hit easily, of course, drop the hobgoblin, and Cleave into his Dire Wolf companion.

I'm no longer charging. The wolf isn't evil, nor is it a goblinoid. And since it's Large, I don't get the higher ground modifier.

So, using the same BAB figure (+6), I add any applicable modifiers - my Strength bonus (+2), and the Enhancement bonus of my sword (+1), for a total attack bonus of +9.

If I'd gone the other way, charging the wolf and using Smite Evil on the Cleave of the hobgoblin instead, then my bonus would have been +11 on the initial attack, and +16 on the Cleave.

The feat text, to remove ambiguity, should say "at the same base attack bonus". It doesn't, but that's how it works.

-Hyp.

 

[BSF]

I have never seen an arguement that sways me to allow True Strike to apply to a Cleave.

Consider a situation where you are flankign your primary adversary, you get an additional +2 from Flanking. Does that flanking bonus carry across to the guy standing next to your opponent once you cleave?

What about Bane weapons? Say you have a +2 Battle Axe Elemental Bane and are fighting a summoned earth elemental that is fighting alongside the BBEG Wizard's Fighter Cohort. When you bring down the Elemental, does the additional +2 from Bane apply to your attack against the Fighter?

In both of these case, I would say the bonuses do not apply. True Strike is a temporary bonus and does not "carry over" either. After all, it is just a first level spell with a 1 attack duration. The wording on the Cleave feat seems to be intended to cover situations with iterative attacks and/or Power Attack. That is how I play it in my games.

 

[Feliks]

For balance purposes, you should probably go with the interpretation that you only get the bonus on the initial attack, but not on the cleave attack.

I tend to agree with due to the fact that it is just too overpowering. The GM in my game says that you get the bonus though. True strike, power attack, great cleave and whirlwind is going to be devastating together.

Feliks

 

[Hypersmurf]

What about Bane weapons?

Snap

-Hyp.

 

[Crothian]

Well, if he's going to allow all that; I think he'll see very quickly why he shouldn't

 

[Feliks]

From the 3E Main FAQ:

If you use the true strike spell and you get a threat, does
the +20 bonus from the apply to the critical confirmation
roll? Would the +20 bonus apply to the extra attacks you
get from the Cleave, Great Cleave, or Whirlwind attack
feats?
When you roll to confirm a critical, you use whatever
bonuses applied to the attack roll that made the threat, no
matter where those bonuses came from.
True strike affects only one attack. (Rolling to confirm a
critical is not a separate attack for this purpose.) If you make
multiple attacks in a round, your bonus from true strike applies
only to the first attack you make, no matter how you managed
to get multiple attacks.

In the Cleave feat, the phrase "at the same bonus" distinguishes it from other feats which grant an extra attack "at your highest base attack bonus".

If you have a BAB of +6/+1, and you drop an opponent with your first attack, then the Cleave is calculated using the +6 and any applicable modifiers. If you drop an opponent with your second attack, then the Cleave is calculated using the +1 and any applicable modifiers.

Since True Strike discharges on your first attack, it is not an applicable modifier to the Cleave attack.

Likewise, if I am Paladin making a mounted charge and Smiting Evil at a hobgoblin with my Goblinbane sword, then I have:

+6: BAB
+2: Strength bonus
+2: Charging
+4: Smite Evil
+1: Enhancement bonus
+2: Bane bonus
+1: Higher Ground bonus

Total: +18.

I hit easily, of course, drop the hobgoblin, and Cleave into his Dire Wolf companion.

I'm no longer charging. The wolf isn't evil, nor is it a goblinoid. And since it's Large, I don't get the higher ground modifier.

So, using the same BAB figure (+6), I add any applicable modifiers - my Strength bonus (+2), and the Enhancement bonus of my sword (+1), for a total attack bonus of +9.

If I'd gone the other way, charging the wolf and using Smite Evil on the Cleave of the hobgoblin instead, then my bonus would have been +11 on the initial attack, and +16 on the Cleave.

The feat text, to remove ambiguity, should say "at the same base attack bonus". It doesn't, but that's how it works.

-Hyp.

Has the wording changed from 3.0 to 3.5 for either of these?