Question regarding "Worked stone"

[Greenfield]

There are a number of spells that affect earth or stone, but specifically exempt "worked stone".

Obviously, stone blocks qualify.

Wall of Stone creates "rough stone", but it can be shaped. Is it "worked stone", for purposes of spells like Transmute Rock to Mud or "Soften Earth and Stone

What about rubble-stone walls? That is, walls built by stacking and/or mortaring field stone? (Think of the stone fences of Ireland or New England, assembled from whatever the farmer found in his field, without any attempt to reshape the individual stones.)

 

[Jackinthegreen]

It's somewhat annoying at how oddities like this pop up within the rules. Why they felt the spell had to work differently between "worked" and "unworked" stone is anyone's guess.

Wall of Stone might fall under the "Magical stone is not affected by the spell" bit in the description. However, it looks to be a solid, continuous block so it would seem to work if it was ruled as currently being non-magical. I'd personally say if it's not currently enchanted or otherwise under the effects of a spell, it would work. The method of creation shouldn't matter, but to each their own.

From the description of Transmute Rock to Mud it looks like the rubble-stone wall can't be affected, at least in its entirety. It's still technically "worked stone" because it's not a continuous block.

It might be possible to affect individual blocks within a wall or fence though. Even better, one might expect to find particularly large chunks in a wall, so using the spell on one of those would probably work. Shovel out the mud and you have yourself a hole.

 

[Greenfield]

Actually, the spell doesn't say it has to be a single solid piece of stone. It says stone of any sort within the volume restrictions. So it should even work on gravel. Rocky soil would probably qualify, though only the rock would liquify, making the mud a bit thicker.

It says:

This spell turns natural, uncut or unworked rock of any sort into an equal volume of mud...

It answers the question asked about why the spell has to "work differently between worked and unworked stone" as well: If you don't want it to be "Slay Castle" you need to make worked stone immune.

Specifically, it says "Castles and large stone buildings are generally immune..." because of the "no worked stone" rule. But "generally" isn't the same as "universally", suggesting that there can be buildings made of stone that aren't immune. Hence my questions about things like walls made of rough, natural stone.

But there are other spells than just Rock to Mud, so I'm not going to worry about the specific language of a specific spell. Rather, I'm asking the general question, "what qualifies as natural, uncut and unworked stone"?

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

I had to make my own call on this one. I have ruled that "Worked Stone" referred to any stone that had been shaped by tools.

Wall of Stone created walls are fair game for the spells, in my opinion.

 

[bloodtide]

Worked stone

Worked Stone: Any stone that has been altered from it's natural state by an intelligent creature.

Would that cover it? I guess you could go all rules wise:

Worked Stone:Any stone where any any intelligent creature has used any Craft or Profession skill to alter the stone.

*Wall of Stone-is not 'worked' as it's 'special', and obviously no one has worked some stone that just magically appeared.

*Rubble-stone walls, gravel and such would not be 'worked'. A house right down the street from me has a three foot loose rock wall around it.

 

[Jack Simth]

It answers the question asked about why the spell has to "work differently between worked and unworked stone" as well: If you don't want it to be "Slay Castle" you need to make worked stone immune.

Anything unspecified in RAW is DM call, but fundamentally, I think this is the intended guideline.

Any stone where the DM thinks it would break his plot for it to be subject to the spell, is immune. Any rock where the DM thinks it would help his plot for it to be subject to the spell, is subject. Otherwise, it's just loose guidelines.

 

[frankthedm]

A quick check of the Dungeons Section of the DMG / SRD give the relevant info on what unworked stone is.

Unworked Stone Walls
These surfaces are uneven and rarely flat. They are smooth to the touch but filled with tiny holes, hidden alcoves, and ledges at various heights. They’re also usually wet or at least damp, since it’s water that most frequently creates natural caves. When such a wall has an “other side,” the wall is usually at least 5 feet thick. It takes a DC 15 Climb check to move along an unworked stone wall.

Natural Stone Floors
The floor of a natural cave is as uneven as the walls. Caves rarely have flat surfaces of any great size. Rather, their floors have many levels. Some adjacent floor surfaces might vary in elevation by only a foot, so that moving from one to the other is no more difficult than negotiating a stair step, but in other places the floor might suddenly drop off or rise up several feet or more, requiring Climb checks to get from one surface to the other. Unless a path has been worn and well marked in the floor of a natural cave, it takes 2 squares of movement to enter a square with a natural stone floor, and the DC of Balance and Tumble checks increases by 5. Running and charging are impossible, except along paths.[/i]

Wall of Stone creates "rough stone", but it can be shaped. Is it "worked stone", for purposes of spells like Transmute Rock to Mud or "Soften Earth and Stone

I would rule Wall of Stone "goes native" and counts as unworked because the spell WANTS to merge with existing stone. But RAW on that matter is anyone's guess.

What about rubble-stone walls? That is, walls built...

You just answered the question with the word built.EDIT: Retracting that statement. If the stone was from a natural collapse and merely placed into a wall formation, the ensuing wall would be subject to the spells in question.

 

[kitcik]

You just answered the question with the word built.

I don't buy this. I don't think stacking two unworked stones on top of each other and calling it a wall counts as "worked" even though I "built" it. I am not sure where the line is, but it's not there for me.

Maybe mortar spoils the spell?

 

[domino]

Wall of Stone might fall under the "Magical stone is not affected by the spell" bit in the description.

I disagree. The duration of the spell is instantaneous. The magic creates the stone, and is then gone. The stone it creates is nonmagical.

We had a Q&A thread about this very same subject.

My personal opinion, which is based off of, but not necessarily the consensus of the previous thread, is that a standard wall of stone would be affected by stone to mud.

However.

"It can be used to bridge a chasm, for instance, or as a ramp. For this use, if the span is more than 20 feet, the wall must be arched and buttressed. This requirement reduces the spell’s area by half. The wall can be crudely shaped to allow crenellations, battlements, and so forth by likewise reducing the area."

To do that, I would say it counts as working it, you're not just putting a slab of rock between you and your enemies, but you are deliberately changing its shape.

 

[Deset Gled]

This spell turns natural, uncut or unworked rock of any sort into an equal volume of mud...

I don't think the spell works on a Wall of Stone. Regardless of whether the stone from WoS could be considered unworked (it's probably worked) or magical (it's definitely not), it completely fails to be "natural".