Questionable Bard Fix

[insanogeddon]

1. Bards facinate me but always seem no more jacks of all trades than a C.Warrior Samuri. Rangers seem far more the jacks of all trades even without the ever suppreme Rogue/Spell Thief/Scout 1 level come Ranger 19 levels.. Even better as an elf or tallfellow halfling to put the massive search check to ever active secret door duty.
2. Bards music is SO clunky. You need to spend skills on your peform, it takes actions, you cannot cast, you have to make checks if hit in combat or you might drop some bars and muck your song etc

Often my fixes have been along the whole music line, or item familiar instruments that can self play once started etc but it never seems right.

It dawned on me the other night that 2 changes might solve their lack of love and broaden the appeal.

 

[insanogeddon]

woops... where was I ...

1st: Bardic music, bardic knowledge, countersong, fascinate, inspire courage +1
3rd: Inspire competence
6th: Suggestion
9th: Inspire greatness
12th: Song of freedom
15th: Inspire heroics
18th: Mass suggestion

becomes

1st: Bardic music, trap sense, bardic knowledge.
3rd: Inspire competence (Move action).
6th: Evasion, Uncanny Dodge.
9th: Bonus Fighter Feat or Trackless Step or Sneak Attack or a Bardic music effect of 9th or lower level.
12th: Divine Grace.
15th: Bonus Fighter Feat or Trackless Step or Sneak Attack or Bardic music effect of 15th or lower level or a Special ability (as rogue).
18th: Bonus Fighter Feat or Trackless Step or Sneak Attack or Bardic music effect of 18th or lower level or a Special ability (as rogue).

Horrible thought or not ??

 

[irdeggman]

Personally I think bards work fine as written in 3.5.

They are very much jacks of all trades.

Hey they get to cast arcane curing spells. No one else does. {Even though I don't personally like that aspect, it does give them a very, very jack-of-all-trades balance that is really unmatched). And they get Hideous laughter as a 1st level spell instead of a 2nd level one - so at 2nd level a bard gains what might be one of the most useful spells against a single opponent (not to mention one of the most "fun" ones to role-play).

The bardic music effect (Inspire Courage) that affect all allies within hearing distance (a very, very big benfit) continues after they stop performing for 5 rounds.

As a comparison a ranger's track ability relies on survival rolls (hence ranks in the skill).

The bardic music rank dependence does not involve any skill checks only having a certain number of ranks - which provides the class a "focus" on what the character is about.

A side benefit is that because they are required to have so many ranks in perform they can now earn a living by actually using a skill. Now if people are looking at a bard in terms of combat and not in terms of social interaction (and city type encounters) then the class will never match up to the other core classes. It is designed to be a social class and really, really needs the interaction opportunity to shine.

I think your modifications make them far too much like a cross between a rogue and a ranger instead of something "unique".

 

[Sparafucile]

Now if people are looking at a bard in terms of combat and not in terms of social interaction (and city type encounters) then the class will never match up to the other core classes. It is designed to be a social class and really, really needs the interaction opportunity to shine.

This is true. The bard is not the best class for a dungeon crawl, nor can he go toe to toe in a straight up fight. It's designed to be a support class, and it does that well.

I'd also add that the bard has UMD as a class skill. Very useful.

Hopefully, you have a DM who considers the class choices of his/her players, and accomodates them with an occassional moment to shine. If not, maybe it's not the best class.

 

[irdeggman]

Oh and I would have this topic moved to the house rules thread. You are more likely to get the kind of feedback you want when the question is put into a more open, free-thinking forum.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Moved to house rules.

I'm not sure about the Samurai being as good a jack of all trades. Do they have much in the way of a casting ability?

I think that one of the problems of the Bard is that they are in a poor 'halfway house' when it comes to spells. They don't have the full on rate of advancement of clerics, wizards etc. Nor the four spell levels of paladins and rangers.

The problem is that a spell might be a 5th level bard spell instead of a 6th level wizard spell, but they still don't get it until later than the wizard gets it.

Bards are good force multipliers for a party, with their bonuses to hit and damage. The Ebberon campaign setting has some bard-specific feats to enhance their musical abilities which might appeal.

A fighting bard could benefit from the feat (Complete Arcane?) which allows you to convert an arcane spell into extra damage in melee.

 

[Starbuck_II]

2. Bards music is SO clunky. You need to spend skills on your peform, it takes actions, you cannot cast, you have to make checks if hit in combat or you might drop some bars and muck your song etc

1) Correct.
2) Incorrect, after 1st using Inspire Courage: it takes a non-action to continue it.
Only Fascinate, etc require actions to continue.
3) Unless you take Melodic Casting from Complete Mage
4) Only if usiong Fascinate, etc do you need to make Concentration checks.

Bards are pretty beefy: giving everyone +12 to hit/dam by level 10 all day along (using only 1 Bardic Music used).

See, this is the problem:
Are you balancing Bards to Core newbies?
Bard Core Experts?
Bard Non-Core Experts?
People who have heard of a bard but never played them?

This matters for if your Fix will suck, be okay, or a good idea.

 

[insanogeddon]

hmm

Never really thought of fixed like that. I like all things to be equitable within their philosophy.

I suppose core experts is about right, with a newbie (we do give newbies leeway with sources and such).

Exalted Deeds is disallowed as its a large power up and constrains other players allignment flexibility excessively.

Singing all day takes DC increasing endurance checks. Also changing your song (more a ditty) to actually speak and converse is also group rule 0ed after a bard I played broke that.

 

[irdeggman]

Singing all day takes DC increasing endurance checks.

Why, except for common sense? I don't recall any rules on this.

Remember that a bard is not making a skill check when performing to activate his class ability - so he does not even actually have to use the applicable skill that he has the requisite ranks in to activate his class ability and the "quality" of his "performance" is not a factor.

Would a fighter engaged in an epic level battle be likewise required to make endurance checks to fight all day long? Again, common sense would so dictate but I do not think that the abstract D&D combat rules force this to happen.