questioning the divine

[hipnotode]

after reading ken hart's unearthed arcana: strange gods article in dragon, ive been giving some thought to divine character in d&d, specifically the god/gods they worship.

im wondering if the god they are worshiping has to be real, could a cleric worship a or false god (to give a couple of examples; like the sorcerer kings in dark sun, or a powerful being from another plane/planet etc.)
could the god be non-existent? if so, if a character belied in a non-existent god enough and/or converted enough people to there faith, could there belief cause the god to exist? (think hogfather by pratchett)?
what if they are the only person who believes in there god? could they have the gods whole attention (and would this be a good thing)?
what would happen if a character who drew there divine power from a non-existent or false god was given undeniable proof that they where wrong about there faith?
could a divine character be an atheist?

i know this is all ultimately up to the DM/player to work out, but i would like people opinions on this, and clarification on if these ideas would work in a campaign.

thankyou in advance for your input,
-hip.

 

[Da3mon]

That is a good question

I think it depends on the rules of the setting you play in, or if the story can justify it. But lets talk the most common settings, so in for example PoL, I dont think a god can born out of faith of worshipers. That being said, its your world so go nuts

As for the clerics worshipping false gods, it can totally happen. As I understand it, they get their power in exchange for prayers and stuff, so as long as there is somebody (doest have to be a god) to give a cleric power it can work.

If you shatter someones faith, it tends to be not pretty. People generally go depressive, confused, maybe angry. And dont forget that just one man is smart, and maybe reasoned with, but a group is stupid and unreasonable. Wars have been started for less.

An atheist divine char, hmm? Well that is a story issue, not mechanics, in my opinion. Lets say you have a boy who had divine gifts all his life, but has never been taught or has even heard of the gods. He got his powers because of some gods will, but the boy just accepts them as normal. Technicly he would be a divine atheist, and the mechanics of a cleric/avenger havent really changed. No holy symbol implement thou

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Well, PHB1 had some things to say about that. A Cleric must be dedicated to a god, gods, or a 'philosophy'. So by RAW a cleric doesn't have to have a specific god or any god at all, but they need to worship SOMETHING and presumably since clerics require investiture they will be a member of some sort of organization or hierarchy (though this is not in any way a rule, so a PC could be 'self-ordained').

Beyond that it is all up to the DM and the desires of the players really. I've seen games with practically every conceivable arrangement and relationship between mortals and deities.

 

[the Jester]

Depends on the setting/dm.

 

[DracoSuave]

Depends on the setting/dm.

This.

In FR or the default setting, atheism makes no sense. The gods are actively interfering and its not even in secret.

In Eberron the divine is either distant or not a god but something else like ancestor worship, or a philosophical construct. The setting leaves gods as a question with no answer.

Dark Sun has none.

 

[hipnotode]

[sblock]That is a good question

I think it depends on the rules of the setting you play in, or if the story can justify it. But lets talk the most common settings, so in for example PoL, I dont think a god can born out of faith of worshipers. That being said, its your world so go nuts

As for the clerics worshipping false gods, it can totally happen. As I understand it, they get their power in exchange for prayers and stuff, so as long as there is somebody (doest have to be a god) to give a cleric power it can work.

If you shatter someones faith, it tends to be not pretty. People generally go depressive, confused, maybe angry. And dont forget that just one man is smart, and maybe reasoned with, but a group is stupid and unreasonable. Wars have been started for less.

An atheist divine char, hmm? Well that is a story issue, not mechanics, in my opinion. Lets say you have a boy who had divine gifts all his life, but has never been taught or has even heard of the gods. He got his powers because of some gods will, but the boy just accepts them as normal. Technicly he would be a divine atheist, and the mechanics of a cleric/avenger havent really changed. No holy symbol implement thou [/sblock]

some good points made here, definatle food for thought.

[sblock]Well, PHB1 had some things to say about that. A Cleric must be dedicated to a god, gods, or a 'philosophy'. So by RAW a cleric doesn't have to have a specific god or any god at all, but they need to worship SOMETHING and presumably since clerics require investiture they will be a member of some sort of organization or hierarchy (though this is not in any way a rule, so a PC could be 'self-ordained').

Beyond that it is all up to the DM and the desires of the players really. I've seen games with practically every conceivable arrangement and relationship between mortals and deities.[/sblock]

i like the philosophy thing. i think some interesting characters can spawn from that.

would still like to hear more opinions ideas. especially about RAW, or examples if anyone has played in a campaign with similar ideas.

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Any of my players shouldn't read this (for others, highlight test to read)

Spoiler

I'm DMing a campaign where one or more of the gods have died and been replaced by imposters who then are subeverting their followers to worship their true selves, rather than the god they have replaced.

So, yeah, the divine characters in my campaign are likely in for an unpleasant surprise at some point.

That's somewhat similar to what you are discussing, I think.

 

[Riastlin]

Certainly a character can worship a "false god" if the DM allows it, so long as there is a source for that character's divine power. In one campaign that I ran a while back, I did something along the same lines, just slightly different. The paladin of Moradin came face to face with the mother goddess (homebrew world) and she kept referring to him as "her knight". The paladin finally interrupted and said "With all due respect, I am a paladin of Moradin." to which the goddess replied, "I do not concern myself with such trivial things as names or titles my son, for it is what you believe in, not who you believe in, that truly matters.

Essentially, she had been granting him his powers all along (or at least for some portion of it) even though he had been praying to Moradin. It wasn't that Moradin was a false god per se, just that he wasn't the god granting the powers. The player was great about it and it ended up being an amazing RP arc wherein he had a "crisis of faith" before realizing the truth behind her words, etc. Note though that I would not try this with everyone as some players would object vehemently to such an approach.