Racial Spells and Caster Levels

[AaronOfBarbaria]

Why on Earth would you want to?

You're asking the wrong person - I'm not the one that was curious about doing it, just the one that covered what the rules say on the matter (a matter which I'd never even considered before seeing the post I was answering earlier).

The 'house-rule' depends on how your DM rules...

You are basically just listing the definition of a house-rule at this point - the DM may either go with what the book says (the official rule, which is that racially granted cantrips do not have any bearing at all over things which they do not mention such as other spells gained from other sources), or with something else (a house-rule).

The only time their can be two (or more) differing rulings for the same rule, and none of them be a "house-rule" is when the official rule is literally "whatever the DM decides."

 

[Satyrn]

Why on Earth would you want to?

Assuming you know sorcerer spells what would make you want them in a book?

So you can swap it out for something new. It was what Paul was asking about:

One thing that I'm uncertain about is if the multiclassed sorcerer/wizard could write the spell they have learned as a sorcerer into their wizard spellbook (for the appropriate amount of gold), unlearn it when they level up, then prepare it as one of their wizard spells.

 

[Rossbert]

Oh right, far too convoluted for my blood. I just grab the conditionals as a wizard and use my sorcerer (or bard) spells for stuff I will always want. But now I see the reasoning, especially if it is an unexpected multiclassing.

I should look at questions after I sleep instead of before. At least my first answer (about levels) was right, even if the second part was just half to a third right.

 

[cbwjm]

And if they where multiclassed they would always be able to cast Burning Hands, but they could only cast Magic Missile if they had it prepared. If they later levelled up as sorcerer they could replace Burning Hands with Magic Missile. Then they would always have Magic Missile available and could use a preparation slot for a different spell.

One thing that I'm uncertain about is if the multiclassed sorcerer/wizard could write the spell they have learned as a sorcerer into their wizard spellbook (for the appropriate amount of gold), unlearn it when they level up, then prepare it as one of their wizard spells.

Even if you can't directly copy the sorcerer spell into your spellbook, if you have the time and money you could create a scroll of the sorcerer spell before writing it into your spellbook and then later level up your sorcerer class and swap the spell out for a new one. It would be a rather long route to getting extra spells for your spellbook, though it might be worth it on occasion if the sorcerer spell is one which you don't think you want to have constantly known but would like to have access to it every now and then.

 

[CapnZapp]

That's not what the rule-book says.

Compare the wizard class " If you prepare the 1st-level spell magic missile, you can cast it using a 1st-level or a 2nd-level slot." to the sorcerer class "For example, if you know the 1st-level spell burning hands and have a 1st-level and a 2nd-level spell slot available, you can cast burning hands using either slot."

I don't see a function difference here.

Both classes use "spontanous casting" in that nobody needs to "pre-fill" their slots with spells at breakfast.

You probably have a point, but wasn't it supposed to be about racial spells?

 

[CapnZapp]

So you can swap it out for something new. It was what Paul was asking about:

The discussion has gotten really complicated and confusing by now, so:

- you can't replace any racial spells. That race or feat gave you a specific spell, and you're stuck with it.
- technically you can't write any "known spells" into your spellbook (from race, feat or multiclass), because that's completely separate and only "wizardy sources" qualify for expanding your "wizard repetoire". I completely understand any DM who waives this, however.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

I don't see a function difference here.

Both classes use "spontanous casting" in that nobody needs to "pre-fill" their slots with spells at breakfast.

You probably have a point, but wasn't it supposed to be about racial spells?

The functional difference is that the spellcasting class feature doesn't have universal language - some class can cast spells they have prepared because of their spellcasting feature, and other class can cast spells they know because of their spellcasting feature.

Which is directly relevant to racial spells because it tells us what language needs to be present for the spell to be able to be cast via any spell slots the character has - which racial spells as far as I recall at the moment do not contain for any class, but spells from other sources like the magic initiate feat include the necessary language for the known, but not the prepared, sort of spellcasting class feature to use their spell slots with.

 

[CapnZapp]

I guess I could have read your reply too quickly, but I really missed the part where you explained the consequences of your conclusions. You know, to actually teach how it works

You can cast any spell you know with a spell slot of the appropriate level or higher, even if your normal class is a prep class like cleric, druid, or wizard.

This edition is weird where slots are not intrinsically tied to a class' spellcasting method as they used to be.

That's not what the rule-book says.

Compare the wizard class " If you prepare the 1st-level spell magic missile, you can cast it using a 1st-level or a 2nd-level slot." to the sorcerer class "For example, if you know the 1st-level spell burning hands and have a 1st-level and a 2nd-level spell slot available, you can cast burning hands using either slot."

I guess I just missed the part where we drew conclusions out of this: since a racial spell isn't described as a spell you prepare, you can't write it into your spellbook or cast it with wizard slots.

The problem with this theory is that racial spells are not defined well enough to make the difference clear. For instance, Magic Initiate treats druid and wizard the same. The implication is that when you "learn" a druid spell, you know it. While if you "learn" the same spell as a wizard spell, you can prepare it.

Again, I completely understand any DM that just ignores all of this. God knows a MC spellcaster needs all the help she can get anyway!