Raise Dead etc.

Macbeth

First Post
BardStephenFox said:
Of course, in my homebrew, raising the dead isn't even as easy as it is in the Rules as Written. The deceased has to have some sort of value to the God you are beseeching, otherwise even the gods won't devote energy to searching for a soul lost in the dead wastes. If you are a devout worshipper, you probably made it to the correct citadel (but not always) and your god can probably find you with a minimum of fuss. But, that is neither here nor there.
Just out of curiosity (and feel free to smack me down since you may not want your players to know), does having some value to the god mean you must worship them, or could a deity raise you becuase they, for lack of a better term, like you? An example from our campaign: if Li were to die, and IF he wanted to be raised (a big 'if' for Li), might one of the gods bring him back even though he follows no deity? Could, perhaps, Lady Morgancia, say "I like your style, you seem the legendary type, you can come back." Or maybe Pter would like the fact Li works with Wu Cho? I'm not asking if it WOULD happen, but COULD it happen that a character could be brought back without worshiping a spefic deity?
 

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Darth K'Trava

First Post
If the other guy was playing a cleric with sufficient levels to cast the spell, then you'd have it. And also the costly material component.

In one game, there might be one or two clerics who can cast the spell. But now our party cleric has that ability. And he can cast it, provided he has the material component needed.
 

Steel_Wind

Legend
1 - The player was out of line demanding the raise dead;

2 - the player was understandably ticked about dying the way he did. There is a way to kill a player and a way not to, and that was the way not to kill a player.

IMO, neither the player nor the DM handled this appropriately and now some hard feelings and bitterness appear to have resulted.

Before we even get to the "How to Cancel Death" discussion, it’s important to have the "How to Make em Dead" discussion. Because you don't get to the former without passing through the later.

In general, to be a successful DM and run a game that has some integrity while at the same time is both enjoyable for the players and the DM alike (this IS supposed to be fun, remember?) you need to exercise some discretion when putting your players into life and death situations.

There are three categories of player deaths in the game: fair, unjust and borderline.


"Fair" deaths include:

  • player elects to foolishly fight in a situation where roleplaying, guile or simply running away were plainly and obviously called for;
  • provoking a plainly and obviously far more powerful NPC who is known to be evil or otherwise predisposed to summarily killing the rude (lich baiting is stupid);
  • dying in a heroic fight against the boss monster who is appropriately designed in power level vs. the party;
  • sacrificing life to save a party member, important NPC or other quest goal;
  • killing the player via angry villagers or powerful NPCs when the player has decided to oppress the innocent, cause mayhem or otherwise acted in a flagrantly evil, chaotic or oppressive fashion (in a primarily good campaign);
  • killing the player with a trap when the presence of the trap is or ought to be plainly known and the lethal nature of the threat it presented was obvious and avoidable; and,
  • when the PC is otherwise engaged in plainly stupid play and you have telegraphed a potentially dangerous result or otherwise warned the PC of the consequences of this sort of reckless behavior before recently ( or this time specifically) (The RPG version of the Darwin Awards).

There are other instances of course, but the point of it is that "fair" deaths maintain the integrity of the game and tend not to provoke the response that you got from your player in this case.

"Unjust" deaths include:

  • death from an unavoidable fight with plainly overpowering creatures;
  • death from an unavoidable trap which was plainly unfair;
  • death during an ignominious activity by random result;
  • death at the hands of a powerful NPC who did not present himself/herself/itself in a way to demonstrate appropriately that danger was present;
  • other deaths resulting from non-heroic activity

"Borderline" Deaths include:

  • Any of the above examples, changed in a way so as to make the Just Death seem more unjust - or the plainly unjust death seem a little more palatable, but still difficult to determine, either way.

In this case, you violated 2 rules. You killed a player during an ignominious and mundane non-heroic activity and you did it by a random die result. I presume, moreover, that the chasm was not unavoidable and there was a quest goal on the other side of the river - in which case you put him in a case where he had to overcome a lethal trap which was inappropriate to his class and level.

When you engage in this sort of death dealing, you should expect a surly result ("only one character per session", indeed ) and other recriminations and displeasure ("you should have raised me").

When a player expects to be raised from death, what he really is asking for is:

1) unreasonable; and,

2) possibly understandable, as he feels that the death was unjust and non-heroic.

In every case that is a question of fact. And in this case, it was an unjust and non-heroic death.

Raise Dead

Every DM deals with this differently and it is very much a matter of style and group dynamics.

I have a simple rule:

There is no raise dead - there is no resurrection - there is no wish - nothing at all which can EVER bring a character back from the dead.

When the players understand this to be a hard and fast rule that will not under any circumstances be broken for PCs and NPCs alike, they tend to take it in stride and understand that death is a final result in your campaign.

The problem is - if you make this rule a feature of your campaign, you had better pay close attention to player death and make sure that the only deaths which occur are "fair", "just" and "heroic" deaths.

If you try to implement this rule without doing so, you are just asking for injured feelings and a campaign that people don't like to play in because it’s not fun.

And seeing as this is a game, it does not get much more fundamental than that, does it? When it's not fun, in the overall sense of the term, you aren't doing your job correctly and all of you would be better off doing something else.

When you pay appropriate attention to the manner in which player death can occur, the problem of raise dead goes away.

______________________

**Sometimes, even when you do what you should, you can still get the "you killed it you keep it" response and a player balls up his character and throws it at you. (This actually happened 23 yrs ago during a session - it is still an infamous incident in my gaming circle.)

When that happens, you have found a player you don't need in your gaming circle. Explain the problem after emotions have cooled and if they ever do it again, send him or her on their merry way. That’s a player you can all do without.
 
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BSF

Explorer
Macbeth said:
Just out of curiosity (and feel free to smack me down since you may not want your players to know), does having some value to the god mean you must worship them, or could a deity raise you becuase they, for lack of a better term, like you? An example from our campaign: if Li were to die, and IF he wanted to be raised (a big 'if' for Li), might one of the gods bring him back even though he follows no deity? Could, perhaps, Lady Morgancia, say "I like your style, you seem the legendary type, you can come back." Or maybe Pter would like the fact Li works with Wu Cho? I'm not asking if it WOULD happen, but COULD it happen that a character could be brought back without worshiping a spefic deity?

Heh - I was wondering if this thread would slip by your radar. I guess not. :)

The succinct answer is that you do not need to worship a deity to have a chance to come back from the dead. There are many ways in which the dead can be recovered and brought back. Some ways are easier than others and most of them require divine assistance.

You also have to deal with the human politics aspect. That can be a real pain to deal with.
 

Hypersmurf

Moderatarrrrh...
Steel_Wind said:
There are three categories of player deaths in the game: fair, unjust and borderline.

Depends on the group.

Particularly if the DM has a 'Roll in the open' policy, then it's possible for a character to die in a silly little fight with a couple of minion mooks who happen to roll some flukey crits. It wasn't a highlight fight with the BBEG; it's just that the damned x3 crit on a greataxe can be really, really nasty when it happens twice in one round.

As noted, there are ways to be a little more sensible about crossing a rope bridge than just pelting across it in full armour and trusting to the balance check. It is supposed to be an obstacle. If you take your time and take precautions, you won't die. If you rush it without giving it any thought - despite the fact that it's obviously precarious and you can't see the bottom! - you deserve to reap the consequences.

"Fair" and "unjust" are very, very subjective terms.

-Hyp.
 

Steel_Wind

Legend
Hypersmurf said:
Depends on the group.

Particularly if the DM has a 'Roll in the open' policy, then it's possible for a character to die in a silly little fight with a couple of minion mooks who happen to roll some flukey crits. It wasn't a highlight fight with the BBEG; it's just that the damned x3 crit on a greataxe can be really, really nasty when it happens twice in one round.

"Fair" and "unjust" are very, very subjective terms.

I'll agree that sometimes bad things happen to good players. Open rolling enhances that. I tend to do both open rolls and more private rolls and switch between the two often.

And yes, open rolling gets people more concerned - no doubt about it. The tension level at the table goes up perceptibly during combat.

But if that's the way your group works and people are used to it and accept that - then that can be "fair" - provided that the encounter is not inherently unbalanced.

***********

I don't think that "fair" and "unjust" are "very, very subjective". I think there are objective elements to those qualities. While justice can certainly be pretty hard to determine, injustice is a largely shared emotional reaction to a given set of facts and outcome. People sharing the same cultural background will react to palpable injustice alomst universally. It's not subjective at all.

I'm a lawyer. Describing a just result is often difficult to a judge. But there is usually no difficulty at all in demonstrating and persuading anyone about a palpable injustice. That's the easy part.

So I have to disagree with you on that one.
 
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Hypersmurf

Moderatarrrrh...
Steel_Wind said:
I don't think that "fair" and "unjust" are "very, very subjective".

Well, you think a PC dying by falling off a rope bridge is unjust.

I don't.

Doesn't that mean it's a subjective matter?

-Hyp.
 



Steel_Wind

Legend
Hypersmurf said:
Well, you think a PC dying by falling off a rope bridge is unjust.

I don't.

Doesn't that mean it's a subjective matter?

-Hyp.

There is a little more to deciding whether something was a "just" death and "unjust" don't you think?

I think so. Let's re-read, shall we?.

The other night, during a session I was DMing, I had a player who made a couple of bad Balance check rolls, while crossing a thin, unsafe rope bridge. He fell 200' down a chasm, and the resulting damage killed him outright. He was playing a 6th level Fighter/Dwarf.


Now, you stated yourself words to the effect that "if the player had taken his time and done A B and C to prepare himself, he would have been fine and death would not have resulted", to paraphrase.

With respect, there is absolutely >>zero<< evidence of that in the poster's premise. That's your spin. Nothing less.

You took what was stated by the poster to be a save or die death maneuver and turned it into a trap where clear thought, thinking and preparation would have made the obstacle safely surmountable.

That's a very different proposition than the poster leads the reader to suggest.

So we aren't talking about falling off the same rope bridge now, are we? Small wonder we have a difference of opinion as to the "justness" of the result.

You see it as this:
  • "killing the player with a trap when the presence of the trap is or ought to be plainly known and the lethal nature of the threat it presented was obvious and avoidable"

Which - as I have already stated, is a "just" death.

I saw it as this:
  • "death from an unavoidable trap which was plainly unfair;"
  • "death during an ignominious activity by random result;"

Only Mordfane knows the other situational circumstances, which would serve to clarfiy the matter, but the reaction of the player speaks volumes.
 
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