Raising a Succubus

[dragonfriend7738]

I remember reading a Dragon or Kobold article about the society and making of a Succubus. For instance, the importance of birth sequence and the role of Incubi in the machinations of Succubi and other Tan'ari culture.

I distinctly remember reading that a succubus isn't actually born evil- but rather the constant tortures, trials and cultural traditions are what twists a succubus into the sadistic, soul-sucking demon that we are all familiar with. The article even went so far as to suggest that an infant that was rescued before such conditioning could start or take place might even end up different from a normal succubus.


Well, my campaign just did that. The paladin led a party into a portal to the abyss, and found a succubus spawn pit on the way to challenge a balor. After clearing out the grown succubi and incubi (plus a few lesser demons) the party found a single newly born succubus, and the bard talked all the other characters down from commiting what he considered infanticide. After finishing their objective, the party left the abyss and took the child with them, dropped her off at a monastary and instructed the monks there that should she start depicting the personality of a typical succubus, they should contact the party immediately.

Now the game is about to face a time jump- the party is going to be isolated from the rest of reality in something similar to a stasis bubble, and the world will march on past them for about 20-25 years. I want the now-grown succubus that the party rescued to be on the team that breaks the party out of the enchantment and lets them in on the events of the years that they missed.

My question is this: What abilities from the MM succubus would you say are racial (as in innate to the species) and which would be from the conditioning and survival needed for an entity to survive in the abyss? What ECL would a succubus have, and how feasible would it be for someone to play a CN or even a possible CG succubus with this bacground?

 

[Dozen]

Uh... There is no such thing as a baby succubus. I don't know about other editions, but in 3rd. Ed. core, neither succubi nor othe Tanar'ri demons are 'born' in the traditional sense. They are metamorphed petitioners. The Fiendish Codex clearly states this multiple times. The closest thing they have to infants are manes(which is not a necessary cycle and can end up as pretty much any kind of Tanar'ri), and next to all petitioners of the Abyss are Chaotic Evil. Of course there is no reason you couldn't ignore that so you can tell a good story, but we need info from somewhere to tell you anything more than what you could figure out on your own. Where did you find that article, and how old it is?

 

[Dandu]

Erinyes do have children, iirc, but not Succubi.

Still, it makes for an interesting dilemma: nature vs nurture?

 

[Dozen]

Erinyes do have children, iirc, but not Succubi.

EDIT: Misunderstood what you said, sorry. All Fiends can have children, they just don't, at least not between themselves. They are not interested in starting a family and need hell of a reason to be bothered to deliver kids.

 

[Dandu]

IIRC, in the Fiendish Codes II, it mentions Erinyes having their own secluded communities in Hell where they raise children.

 

[VariSami]

Erinyes do have children, iirc, but not Succubi.

Still, it makes for an interesting dilemma: nature vs nurture?

Also, while I'm not familiar with the article, it being about Erinyes would make sense. After all, they are fallen Celestials - and as such, they are probably still prone to goodness as much as evilness from birth.

I agree though - while the metamorphosis of evil retainers does not exactly allow for this, it makes a good story and has already been done in any case. Besides, who's to say what a newly formed succubus should look like? Maybe they do indeed go through natural life cycles.

I think the monster progression in Savage Species could be of help. First of all, it gives a way to depict "not fully matured" succubi. Secondly, it clearly divides the abilities so that you can handpick things easier.

My personal opinion on the matter is that all abilities should be allowed, save for Summon Tanar'ri. They don't have any innately evil abilities unless one counts their energy drain ability but even that's simply explainable as a part of their being. I would definitely not say that it is created by their upbringing myself. It feels like a natural capability which need not be used (unless you actually rule that they gain nutrition from feasting on energy, a possible and interesting choice).

I'm just reminded of Fall-from-Grace. Who was an interesting character, in my opinion.

 

[Shemeska]

Uh... There is no such thing as a baby succubus. I don't know about other editions, but in 3rd. Ed. core, neither succubi nor othe Tanar'ri demons are 'born' in the traditional sense. They are metamorphed petitioners. The Fiendish Codex clearly states this multiple times. The closest thing they have to infants are manes(which is not a necessary cycle and can end up as pretty much any kind of Tanar'ri), and next to all petitioners of the Abyss are Chaotic Evil. Of course there is no reason you couldn't ignore that so you can tell a good story, but we need info from somewhere to tell you anything more than what you could figure out on your own. Where did you find that article, and how old it is?

The 2e lore on the other hand states that tanar'ri can birth other tanar'ri in the same way as mortals, so long as they actually have genitalia to do so. The vast majority of their kind are however either spontaneously generated from the raw stuff of the Abyss, or transmuted from mortal petitioners.

Conversely, baatezu (with the exception of the nobility) cannot birth more of their kind since female baatezu are sterile. This point has waffled back and forth between 2e and 3e mind you, and personally I'm not absolutely chained down in one or the other, though the lore conflict mildly annoys me.

And I believe that the article that the OP is referencing is a 4e KQ article on the succubus. As such it diverges from the body of lore above.

 

[Dozen]

IIRC, in the Fiendish Codes II, it mentions Erinyes having their own secluded communities in Hell where they raise children.

Yes, on Page 18. If you consider them valid Devils(I certainly do), then you've disproven me. Cheers.

My personal opinion on the matter is that all abilities should be allowed, save for Summon Tanar'ri. They don't have any innately evil abilities unless one counts their energy drain ability but even that's simply explainable as a part of their being. I would definitely not say that it is created by their upbringing myself. It feels like a natural capability which need not be used (unless you actually rule that they gain nutrition from feasting on energy, a possible and interesting choice).

I agree completely. If we said the abilities are dependent on their evil nature, this Succubus was nevertheless born in the Abyss. I'd say it would take several generations for those abilities to vanish even if she managed to get a Native Demon community running. She should be capable of everything a normal succubus can do, and maybe earn Summon Tanar'ri later in life if she chose to strike deals with other demons.

Conversely, baatezu (with the exception of the nobility) cannot birth more of their kind since female baatezu are sterile.

Now that you mention it, I think this is the case in 3rd Ed. as well. Lemme check... yes, the Fiendish Codex states that among baatezu, 'only erinyes, pleasure devils, and unique female devils are capable of becoming pregnant.'

 

[Sunseeker]

Nit-picking on if demons can really make babies or not aside, most "evil spells" have good-aligned counterparts.

Grabbing this from the PFOGC site

Constant—detect good, tongues
At will—charm monster (DC 22), detect thoughts (DC 20), ethereal jaunt (self plus 50 lbs. of objects only), suggestion (DC 21), greater teleport (self plus 50 lbs. of objects only), vampiric touch
1/day—dominate person (DC 23), summon (level 3, 1 babau 50%)

She also has Energy Drain and Profane Gift.

First, detect good can easily be replaced with detect evil. Seems fitting for a succubus raised by a church. Tongues is alignment neutral and pretty natural for a creature that by design needs to interact with multiple species/socities.
Charm Monster is really neither good or evil, same with Detect thoughts, ethereal jaunt and greater teleport.

Vampiric touch should likely be replaced with some form of healing. Dominate person would also IMO, get a similar replacement, perhaps a simple "UN-dominate person". Seeing as the good-aligned succubus uses her natural seduction ability to smack some sense into those magically dominated.

I'd keep summon, but give her some sort of chaotic good beast instead of a lesser demon.

Profane Gift becomes "Holy Blessing", which does all the same things but is good-aligned.
Energy Drain doesn't really come across well, perhaps something that restores a level? Given that a good-aligned succubus would likely eschew sex entirely, and the use of energy drain is based on well...the deed, I think it could be ignored entirely, or replaced with something flavorfully holy-themed for a rare instance of say...true love(the only opposite to lustful passion that comes to mind).

So you'd have something like this:
Detect Good, Tongues
Charm Monster, Detect Thoughts, Ethereal Jaunt, Greater Teleport.
Greater Heal, Un-Dominate Person.

Holy Blessing, *Something Special*.

I dunno, thoughts...so many. It would make your succubus more of a backup healer than the more melee-oriented base succubus.

, and unique female devils are capable of becoming pregnant.'

I wanted to reference this since I feel it's relevent.

PC's and important other NPCs are considered "unique" in 3.X and beyond. They do not need to hold to traditional racial, social or fantasy tropes because they are PCs and special NPCs.

Given that in an entire demonic spawning pit, they found only one child, I think it would be fair to reason that both child and mother are unique. Perhaps the reason that so many demons were around this particular spawning pit was because of how incredibly rare the child was.

So I would say both the succubus NPC and her mother, whatever sort of creature that was, would be considered "unique" and thus given a pass on having to perfectly align with the rest of their species.

 

[dragonfriend7738]

Some really good ideas

This is awesome stuff, especially if I was planning on making a divinely converted succubus (a succubus version of a redeemed lich, per se) but I don't think the story allows for that kind of drastic changes.

I do like swapping out Detect Good for Detect Evil- it makes sense in context and allows for a natural ability to be trained by those who would be teaching her. Same mentality for an anti-dominate person ability, however that would work. (Maybe something similar to a Freedom Paladin's boon for allies? *pondering*)

The energy drain and profane gift* are a bit more tricky, though. (*Where do you see profane gift? I'm looking at the 3.5 MM and the SRD and I'm not seeing that.) The energy drain seems to be a racial thing- Succubi can choose to draw sustenance in the form of life energy from people they kiss (or more.) If you look at it a certian way, this isn't a taught thing- it could be similar to Rouge's energy drain ability- it's just a natural thing that they can't control. Turning that into a positive energy ability would be altering the very being of the succubus- which would probably require lots of divine energy/intervention and probably a lengthy ritual.

Succubi gain a resistance to spells- makes sense that she'd keep that, as her outsider/demon type remains the same.

They also gain Fire/Cold/Acid resistance 10 and Electricity/Poison immunity. How much of this could you say is a result of racial strengths, and how much would be a result of the horrendous tortures and trials that a young demon must go through to reach maturity in the abyss?

I do think that the natural summon demon ability should go- either because she is unable to name any demons to call, or because she never learned how to do it in the first place.

Basically, I'm trying to see what I can do to strip a level or two off of the CR of the Succubus and make it feasable to be introduced as a neutral-ish NPC, under the storyline logic posted above. I will take a look at the SS level increments, but by the time that she's showing up to break the party free, I'm hoping that she's going to be high enough level to have gotten through her racial leveling. (Which is a bit brutal going through the SS version of the Succubus levels, as seen from a previous thread about succubi leveling.)


As to the source of the information that I based the finding of the infant Succubus- all I know for certian is that it was a DnD based magazine; I'm not fully certian what edition it was meant for. It did have some very well thought information in it, though.

And thank you all for your input, I really do appreciate it.