Ravenloft Campaigns: What’s the meta-point?

[Beginning of the End]

For me, the 2nd Edition Ravenloft CS was all about fighting the darkness. Part of that, I suspect, is my ornery nature. When an RPG rulebook says "you can never", my first impulse is to reply, "Oh yeah? Watch me." Plenty of people certainly told me that I was playing it "wrong" -- that Ravenloft is supposed to be about evil that's impossible to overcome.

For me, the ultimate tale of Ravenloft, though, was "freeing a domain from the Mists". Maybe that means finding a way for a Domain Lord to redeem themselves; maybe that means defeating the Domain Lord; maybe that means something else.

OTOH, I think this epic goal isn't necessarily of central importance. Although it's nice to have one, it's more important to have that "core concept" from which individual adventures can be endlessly generated. After all, you might (might!) achieve that epic goal once in the course of a campaign. But you'll need to generate dozens of adventures over the course of that campaign.

So, with that in mind, I think the core concept of Ravenloft can be understood as the inversion of the core concept of traditional D&D. The traditional D&D dungeon crawl can be summed up as: "The heroes go to a place of danger." A Ravenloft adventure, on the other hand, can be summed up as: "Danger comes to the PCs and they must survive it or defeat it."

If we wanted to make this more specific, maybe we need to give the PCs' something to protect. Make the village a core component of the concept: A home which can be assaulted by an number of horrors and yet must be protected. (The term "village" like the term "dungeon" can encompass many things: Maybe it's a monastery. Or Buffy's Sunnydale. Or Angel's Los Angeles. Or a ship named Serenity.)

OTOH, it might also be useful to look at Call of Cthulhu, inarguably the most successful horror RPG ever published. Here, too, you'll have people tell you that the PCs are supposed to be destined to lose. But plenty of Cthulhu adventures and much of Lovecraft's own fiction feature victories. Yes, the Deep Ones are still out there and Cthulhu is still destined to rise... but Cthulhu will not rise today and the Deep Ones have been driven back into the depths of the sea.

So, in that sense: Yes, the Mists will always be there. But that doesn't mean that victories cannot be had.

In Call of Cthulhu this means that the central story is one of investigation. So it is possible to do "go forth and adventure" structures within the context of horror.

And one more thought for the road: Part of the problem in trying to distinguish Ravenloft from standard D&D is that there isn't much to distinguish them. D&D has been heavily steeped in horror traditions since Day #1. But, like Conan, it tends to kill the Cthulhu-oid monstrosities and take its stuff.

So maybe Ravenloft doesn't need a distinct core concept: Maybe it's still just a place where you kill stuff and take its loot. The difference is that Ravenloft is a more dangerous place to do it (with rewards commensurately higher). In this scenario, Ravenloft isn't a place for a 1-20 campaign and trying to figure out how to make it work like that is like trying to figure out how to run a heroic 1-20 campaign in Mordor: Mordor/Ravenloft is where the campaign goes when the Barrow Wights/Orcs aren't cutting it any more.

 

[Irda Ranger]

I think the discussion went too quickly into the rules proposals that you sought to discuss "later", and I think the OP's lack of control of the direction of the discussion has caused emotions/tempers to rise.

I agree.

Actually, it wasn't even a rules discussion. It was just a Setting debate, like whether or not Elminster is a Mary Sue. Naturally it was a disaster. Well, live and learn.

I'd have to say that the reason why people play in a Ravenloft game is the same reason they go see a scary movie--they want a good scare. They want to get involved, invest more in their characters than generating stats and picking skills and feats and proceeding to kill monsters. Sure you can go to a scary movie and not get scared and enjoy it, but when you start projecting yourself into the characters, you start to feel some of their tension and gradual horror.

Players want something like that out of a Ravenloft thing--not a "I'm trapped in Ravenloft, I've got to get out" kind of thing, as is suggested. First, that attitude is a little too meta-gamey. The only PCs outside of Ravenloft that would know anything about Ravenloft would be those from a Planescape type of setting, and even then not everyone knows about it. As far as anyone else is concerned, their world just got turned on its head, ala Twilight Zone/Tales from the Darkside.

There is no heroic journey, no epic destiny in Ravenloft. This isn't the kind of campaign for that sort of stuff unless you're shooting for something like a band of paladins "growing up" until they're capable of facing a darklord. But, in Ravenloft, by the time said paladins (or heroes, whatever) were prepared and able to face and defeat a darklord, they would have realized there would be more dire consequences to be had if the darklord was deposed or slain. As an example.

Perhaps the best way to state it is that in other D&D games, the end result is what is important; killing the dragon, saving the princess, leveling up and getting the new sword/artifact. In Ravenloft, its the journey that is the focus. The hero may win or lose, but in a Ravenloft game, its all about the choices that the hero made (or didn't make) along the way that matter.

Hmmm ....

I think I see what you're getting at, but it's also a little vague. It doesn't offer the potential Ravenloft DM much guidance on how to write RL quests or run an RL campaign. Should we presume that the choice is "To be a source of light when all the surrounding paths are shrouded in darkness" or focus on the choice between light and giving in to the darkness? Or something else entirely?

When I'm writing a Core D&D quest I always make sure there's monsters to kill and stuff to take. When I write a Dark Sun adventure I make a special note of water sources and food supplies - and who (or what) else is competing for them. Etc. Because that's the focus of those types of adventures. If the meta-point of RL adventures is making choices, what sort or choices? What metric do we use to measure RL adventures as a success (besides "Did the players have fun?")?

I don't understand the statement about Domains/Darklords and not being allowed to be important and ruining the game if it is. Each setting IS important, and each, to a degree, dictates how things will be in the game.

Yeah, totally. But if (as you said) the meta-plot of an RL campaign is "A few good scares and a life of paths chosen." then that meta-plot can be accomplished in any Domain. That's all I meant. Of course the Domain you're in will effect the details.

Someone earlier posited that PCs are in a 'survival' mode of sorts, defensive adventuring, mitigating bad things, cutting losses, etc. and that is not too far off the mark. Ravenloft is not as magic/wealth heavy as the Realms or Greyhawk. Getting the next best widget is not the goal of a Ravenloft game, but rather accomplishing some goal is the driving force; saving a village, finding a cure for something. Basically, Ravenloft adventuring is living life, not so much a monster-hunting, treasure-hauling excursion. You make choices and you have to face the consequences (and rewards) those choices bring. You go through a Ravenloft adventure done right and you're going to have a character--not a set of stats and numbers, but a character as real as any you've ever read about.

This is really good. "The story of a man ..."

I need to think more though about how to incorporate this into a pithy "Kill things and take their stuff" type motto for RL.

I don't know where you got that stuff or the part about not enough hope. I'd guess that you maybe like Ravenloft alot, have even read some of it, but haven't ever DM'ed it, or rarely so.

That's a fair cop. I've read the RLCS and several novels, but haven't DMed it much. I ran a few adventures in high school (using AD&D 2e) but now that I'm back into D&D (thanks to 4e) I'd like to take another stab at it.

I guess I felt that way because of how the CS focused on the Darklords. But that's a side discussion (let's not go there again! ). I also sort of assumed that it would always be obvious which Domain you're in, but not necessarily, obviously. Depends on how active the local Darklord is ...

 

[Irda Ranger]

A Ravenloft adventure, on the other hand, can be summed up as: "Danger comes to the PCs and they must survive it or defeat it."

Something wicked this way comes. You probably can't kill it, but try to thwart it. And don't make any choices that turn you Evil or Crazy in the process if you can help it.

 

[Dimitri Mazieres]

[...] If the meta-point of RL adventures is making choices, what sort or choices? What metric do we use to measure RL adventures as a success (besides "Did the players have fun?")?

Moral choices. In Ravenloft, morality is black and white. There's no "shades of gray". You can't justify torturing the BBEG because he's an abomination who maimed and murdered dozens of innocents, because that would make you just like him. And then the characters will have to live with the consequences of their actions.

Btw, Irda Ranger, what is it that you, specifically, like about Ravenloft? Maybe if you state what aspects of the setting appeal you the most, then the discussion could be geared toward enforcing those aspects.

 

[InVinoVeritas]

Hey, IR. Hope all is well.

I'm a big Ravenloft fan, but I've definitely tweaked it my own way over time. I'll plug my Paridon campaign here on ENWorld as an example. Here's my take on Ravenloft:

1. It's all about the choices we make, every day.
Morality is key to success in a Ravenloft game. Ultimately, this turns the whole standard D&D trope of "gather power, make Epic Destiny" on its ear, because you can always choose to do the right thing. A first-level character is just as capable at fighting back the darkness as a 20th-level character--the real choice is how to fight it back. The end goal isn't beating the BBEG, but about understanding who you really are and coming to peace with whatever that happens to be.

2. Our choices define ourselves.
We are the end result of everything that happens to us and everything we do to ourselves and the world around us. The Dark Powers are just an allegory. They don't turn people into monsters--they merely portray the monsters that those people already are. I worry far less about power balance here as a result. Since you don't need to be powerful to make a difference, it's less important. A character isn't defined by the stats or the equipment, but how that equipment or stats or powers get used.

3. It's about personalities.
Stemming from the first two points, RP is vital in Ravenloft. It's about figuring out who you really are, what you're made of, how your mind bends, and how it breaks. I spend a lot of effort in conversations, sights, sounds, textures, fidgets, tics, everything that makes up everything. The depth of the detail is necessary.

4. The world is one of the most important personalities.
All of the beauty and terror you pour into a Ravenloft game should be apparent in the scenery. Here is a great place to allow for the differences between Domains. The neverending claustrophobic and byzantine urban character in Paridon is one example. I once ran another FTF campaign called "A Matter of Taste" that involved Stezen D'Polarno of Ghastria, and Ivana Boritsi and Ivan Dilisnya of Borca in a treacherous game of politics and trade with the PCs as their pawns. Everything D'Polarno was dull, grey, and bland. Everything Boritsi was juicy, sweet, like an overripe plum. Everything Dilisnya was caustic, acrid, and somehow unpalatable. The fun for the players was in trying to keep the balance.

5. There are no combats, only dangerous dances.
I keep minion combats to the minimum. There aren't random holes of goblins to raid, there are never just rats in the cellar. Instead, every battle is pitching personalities against personalities. The fun in combat is determining just how everyone moves with respect and through one another. Many times, I find PCs happily not fighting, but sparring and maneuvering, trying to gain an advantage wherever possible without ever having to pull out a sword. In Paridon, for example, one of the battles was more about avoiding getting run over by a carriage, and stopping it before it runs into a crowd.

6. Fear is in the unknown.
Keep the players guessing. If they meet a vampire, then break out the garlic and crucifixes, and fight. If they meet something that isn't a vampire... then what? Determining the nature of a horror is, in and of itself, a goal and reward. It makes the horror approachable, relatable. In Paridon, the villain Alek uses this to his benefit. The PCs (and players) know some things about him, but might not yet know everything--or even enough--about his strengths, powers, and weaknesses. And how can you combat that which you do not understand?

 

[Le Noir Faineant]

Basically, what IVV has said. Formidable post, man!

So far, I have one big problem with almost all answers given here so far:
The criticism tends to focus on the DM side of the game,
never on the players' side.

If you can keep metagaming out of it,
which is admittedly very hard for us d20 crowd,
RL is the best since sliced bread when it comes to fantasy/horror campaigns,
even better than Warhammer or Ctulhu DA.

The problem, as far as I perceive what is done in other games, is though
that most DMs focus on the metaplot, and not on the very principles.

Let's put it this way: Who of you who ran a Ravenloft game based on a published module (that is not generally regarded as crap, and there admittedly are a few) had bad feedback from his players?

- I don't think there will be many.

 

[gonzoron]

Wow, you forget about a thread for a week and it all goes spiraling off into the weeds.

My apologies if any of my posts sent us in that direction. My goal was to clear up what I saw as some misunderstandings of the setting, and the "limitations" thereof. Since my "core story" of Ravenloft is a very broad one, I see tools to use or discard as you see fit, rather than limitations.

While some of us may disagree on the "patchwork vs. realistic" debate, that doesn't make either of us less of a Ravenloft fan. As I said earlier, that debate's gone on in RL fandom as far as I can remember. So I won't dredge up too much, just respond to a few things that caught my eye and that (hopefully) either relate to the original point of the thread or clear up more misconceptions. I will endeavor not to drag us back into the discussion of what should or shouldn't be part of the setting.

Namely I object to the consequences of a Darklord's death being pure DM fiat. Is the Domain absorbed, disappeared, new Darklord appears? Whatever man, could be anything. Maybe you get spun off into the Abyss, huh?

It really drains the point of adventuring when it's up to the DM to make sure everything turns out better (rather than worse). Isn't that the Hero's job?

I would say no, that's not the hero's job. The Hero's job is to do what's right. To fight the good fight, and to protect the innocent. To choose the least of evil when all choices are bad. And I think it's important to note that any of the options I listed are a lesser evil than simply letting the Darklord be. (And spinning into the Abyss is not one of those options, at least canonically).

The consequences of killing a BBEG are up to the DM in any world, and every RPG requires a level of trust between the DM and the players. Ravenloft's artificial nature only emphasizes that fact. When the PCs succeed, less people dying is the reward, not necessarily a huge improvement in the world. And on occasion if the PCs do what's right, but the consequence turns out to be horrendously worse, the purpose should be an opportunity for roleplaying, and a seed for future adventure, not simply the DM going, "HA-ha, you can't beat the Dark Powers!!"

Getting my players to learn and accept a campaign world and all its myriad detail is hard. All those details like days in the week, general geography, etc. don't come quickly or easily to the ones that don't read the novels and campaign setting. I consider it a major achievement once they start really "being in the world", seeing it as a native of that world would. If I made them start over on that stuff every time they walked into a new Domain they'd glare at me and say "What are you doing, man? What's the point of all this?".

I don't want to belabor this point too much, but it seems like you have an exaggerated view of how different the domains are. I know of no example of "the seasons run backwards" and the different skies have been done away with, with very few exceptions. When my players walk from Lamordia to Darkon, they say, "hmm, looks like they're a bit more accepting of magic here, and the weather's warmer now that we're down from the mountains." Not, "Oh my god, halflings! what strange hell is this?" If you stay within the core or a single cluster, it's very tough to tell that the world is disjoint.

And yet, as an example of the benefit of keeping the disjoint world: when my players took a long journey through the mists to Nidala, one of the few places that still does have a different sky, the reaction was, "hoo boy, we are definately not in Kansas anymore," not "yeah right, you expect us to believe that?" A little extra flavor to stress that they were far from home. Not an earth-shattering existential crisis.

I can do either of those in any campaign setting. I've replaced, rewritten and inserted whole kingdoms and races into Greyhawk without needing the demiplane excuse. But I did that before play, while the whole Demiplane thing creates problems during play.

Of course you can edit any campaign setting, but what's the point of a campaign setting at all? It's to inspire the DM in ways his imagination can't, and to give players a common touchstone of where they are. So it comes down to: does the existence of Ravenloft's "weirdness" interfere with a DM's ability to tell stories and engage their players? I submit that it does not.

So in the cannon of gothic lit, there IS room for happy endings.

100% percent agreed. And I've given some examples of such Ravenloft. Doom & Gloom is the nature of parts of the Ravenloft 'core story' but not necessarily the end.

I suppose the argument for keeping things the way they were, is most people who play Ravenloft probably don't just want a gothic horror setting; but want the Ravenloft setting itself.

This is an important point too, I think. This is what I was trying to get at when I was talking about the "uniqueness" that the demiplane setting provides.

I guess I felt that way because of how the CS focused on the Darklords. But that's a side discussion (let's not go there again! ). I also sort of assumed that it would always be obvious which Domain you're in, but not necessarily, obviously. Depends on how active the local Darklord is ...

I'm not going there again, I swear, I just want to let you know that the 3e Campaign Setting doesn't even include the Darklords! (Their stats, and even identities, are in a separate book.) I would encourage you to look at the 3e stuff, because I think it offers a lot of what you're looking for, without throwing the baby out with the bath water.

3. It's about personalities.
Stemming from the first two points, RP is vital in Ravenloft. It's about figuring out who you really are, what you're made of, how your mind bends, and how it breaks. I spend a lot of effort in conversations, sights, sounds, textures, fidgets, tics, everything that makes up everything. The depth of the detail is necessary.

Very good points, all of them. I just wanted to highlight this one, especially as it relates to the bad guys. IMHO, in Ravenloft, no ghost should be "just a ghost". Every ghost is part of a "ghost story." Same for every monster type. Right from the Black Box, they stress that "Random Encounters" don't exist in Ravenloft. Every monster, every magic item, should have a background, a reason why it's there and why it does what it does. (The darklords are merely the extreme example of this.) The 'core story' of Ravenloft definitely involves heroes who seek out the hows and whys and not simply pour firepower on the bad guy. (see also Van Richten, Rudolph)

 

[OniDaimyo]

Ravenloft needs the xenophobia enforced by rules. Panzies need not apply. This crying about "wah wah my tiefling has a -5 to checks with these people" is the kind of person who should not play Ravenloft. That sort of thing NEEDS to be there. The people are afraid, paranoid and xenophobic. If you take that away its not really ravenloft anymore. I blame Drizzt fanbois crying blood cause NPCs actually treat them correctly. With mistrust and hostility in some cases. Now in other worlds Tiefling, Half-Orc and Dragonborn and others may get less crap for being what they are but in Ravenloft it really is a big part of the setting and should be kept.