Ready action gamebreaking situations

[Man in the Funny Hat]

So, you can't take a 5-foot during a charge but lets say fighter B moves adjacent to A, then takes a total defence std. action. A, thinking nasty again, readies the same attack and retreat, std. + misc. action , but clever B has another thing in mind , B starts a Full-round attack action, A interrupts and attacks, then retreats a step away, "not so quickly!" says B and simply takes a 5-foot misc. action during her attack and continues hitting A.
End of story, RAW as far as i know.

Well... pretty much. It's just that according to what you're saying there, if B moves adjacent to A and takes a total defense standard action, then it's A's turn. It would be silly for A to READY an action with the intended result being an attack on B. B is RIGHT THERE. A should just attack him. He doesn't need to wait for the next round when B is going to actually go full-attack. Both accomplish the same thing - A attacking B before B's next attack. Otherwise my original reply still holds:

A wins initiative, readies attack against B when B attempts attack.
B moves next to A to attack.
A's readied action interrupts B's turn.
A attacks then takes 5' step.
B's turn RESUMES.

If B has movement remaining he simply moves the further 5' and then attacks. If B's normal movement cannot get him the further 5' to be adjacent to A then B can change his mind and do ANYTHING else he could normally attempt to do including the decision to charge instead of limit himself to normal movement. You do not have to DECLARE actions at the start of your turn and even if you do you are not obligated to do only what you declared. Even if you disagree and insist that isn't true, B would only lose his attack upon A for that turn. Next turn B's normal movement ensures that A's little trick no longer works since A is limited to only a 5' step. In fact, attempting it again on the second turn could ONLY place A 5' away from B, at which point B takes his own 5' step and then gets a Full Attack Action against A.

I don't see how it can be a perpetual advantage unless B's maximum movement is only 5' in the first place.

The fear and confusion that people have always had about this sort of situation is they seem to think that a clever player can use these rules to continually attack and then step out of reach of an opponent rendering the opponent unable to counterattack by those same rules. They think that after A takes a 5' step back out of reach that B is FORCED to stand idle, unable to take any effective action because he MUST do what he declared he was doing - which triggered A's readied action. If B DOESN'T do that action, then A's readied action would never have been triggered - but by that same logic if B CANNOT do that action anymore because A is now out of reach and B can no longer close the remaining distance then A's readied action CANNOT be triggered because the intended attack never takes place.

Really, there's nothing that A does which prevents B from simply finishing what he started - moving next to A and attacking - and the SRD notes that the interrupted character simply then can resume what he started. Only if B is out of movement to complete his action, or something else about what A did completely prevents B from acting is B going to be unable to act. B can charge instead if he needs the extra movement. He can throw something instead. He can... attack a different target that he may be next to. WHATEVER. B is not FORCED to do only what he set out to do before A interrupted it, and do no more, no less, or anything OTHER than that initially intended action. THAT's where it really falls apart. Players want ALL the advantage of preemptive action in 3E, not a single disadvantage, and want immunity from common sense on top of it. So arguments on this subject have nearly always taken the form of somebody wanting to twist the interpretations to have it all and looking for every ILLOGICAL reason for the rules to say he can get away with it.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

quote from d20srd & d20pfsrd : You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.
emphasis mine.

I get what you're saying, but that doesn't mean you can retroactively add the five-foot step to an action that's already been declared, before it's resolved. You could declare you were attacking while making a 5-foot step (though I can't imagine what good that would do you), but you couldn't say that you're attacking and then - halfway through resolving that - change your mind and decide to take a 5-foot step first.

This tactic is extremely limited in use, because it's foiled if your target does anything other than the one thing you've declared as your trigger. It's not useful against anything that has a ranged attack, or reach, or any useful action that isn't just a melee attack. It's marginally useful in a duel against an automaton (mindless undead or constructs) that lacks reach, which is a fairly unlikely scenario.

I had to use this tactic once, and it was one of the reasons why I lost faith in Pathfinder. There was an adventure path where the only way forward involved placating an invincible foe (instantly hostile, incorporeal, touch attack reduces maximum HP permanently, recovers to full HP after 1d4 rounds) by searching a castle full of traps and monsters and other shenanigans for the one item that could let it rest.

If we hadn't worked out something like this in order to keep the monster engaged for hours of in-game time, or if it had been slightly smarter in knowing when to give up the fight (instead of being programmed to attack anyone with a holy symbol), it would have been an unbeatable encounter.

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

I get what you're saying, but that doesn't mean you can retroactively add the five-foot step to an action that's already been declared, before it's resolved.

Yeah, actually it does. 3E is not 1E. There is no "declaration" phase where you state what you are intending to do and then are committed to doing that which you declared, only that, and nothing but that. You take your actions as they come, as you decide to do, at any instant on your turn. Readied actions of others INTERRUPT your own actions and prevent them from actually taking place. Once it becomes your turn again you can do WHATEVER you like - finish what you started or do something else. If you took movement prior to having your actions interrupted then that movement is still used but nothing else you INTENDED to do has actually happened and just as on any other regular turn you can change your mind about what you then want to do (insofar as you are able to do it) or simply finish what you started. Otherwise you don't first attack and THEN the readied action occurs - the readied action occurs first and then you're left to do whatever you are still capable of doing.

Assume you have two attacks. You take a 5' step to be adjacent to a target. You can use full attacks. You use your first attack on the target. If you fail to kill him you can still use your second attack to finish him off. If you DO hit and kill him then you can still use your second attack by... throwing a dagger at someone. Even if you initially intended to full attack the target you stepped next to YOU CAN CHANGE YOUR MIND in the middle of attacking him, use one melee attack upon your first target and then having changed your mind, even though you did not kill that first target, turn and throw a dagger at a completely different target. [Taking the AoO in doing so, of course.]

Assume you have two attacks and are already adjacent to a target. He's acting first and for whatever reasons decides to ready an attack against you IF you attack him (nevermind the fact that this makes little sense over simply attacking you outright, we'll just take it as read that he has his reasons for it). Your turn arrives and you decide to full-attack him. Your action is interrupted. You haven't actually done ANYTHING yet. It becomes his turn. He takes his attack against you and adds a 5' step. He didn't even have to declare that he would take a 5' step. He can add that spontaneously. Now it is your turn again. DO WHATEVER YOU LIKE. You aren't obligated to follow him and attack even though that is what triggered his readied action. You haven't moved - you haven't actually done ANYTHING yet. Finish what you started if you like and just add your own initial 5' step to move up next to him before attacking. Change your mind and run 15' over to a different target if you like. Don't attack at all and simply dig out a potion to drink if that's what you think is best given your IMMEDIATE circumstances. You ARE NOT obligated to attack even though that's what you initially stated you were going to do. That intended action was interrupted and prevented from taking place yet. Now you can do it or not do it. It doesn't matter.

All this is why the idea of being able to perpetually remain out of reach with a 5' step, while also perpetually being able to take your own melee attacks against an enemy is a non-starter. It was never intended to be possible. It's been repeatedly shown to be unworkable (short of, say, having a weapon with 10' reach, and even then isn't perpetually useable). It's been officially ruled not to work. It simply survives as a possibility because people still get very confused reading the rules about readied actions and the 5' step, or simply continue to insist on reading into it what they WANT to read into it.

This tactic is extremely limited in use, because it's foiled if your target does anything other than the one thing you've declared as your trigger.

This is also very true. The abuse of this tactic is facilitated by DM's who allow players to state extraordinarily vague triggers for multiple and complex combinations of actions. "If it looks like he's going to run over and attack me then my readied attack will be against him before he even moves, but if he doesn't move my way then I'll attack that other guy." If you run that part of it reasonably and disallow those kind of "readied actions" and triggers then players will eventually realize that the Ready action does only have a limited use - but it IS still very useful in those limited circumstances.

Again, it's mostly players who want all of the advantages, will tolerate no disadvantages, and who can bully a DM into being told what the rules are even if it means disregarding sensible game practices and common sense (or a DM who doesn't grok the rules any better than the players and/or doesn't understand the reasons why there's a DM at all).

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Yeah, actually it does. 3E is not 1E. There is no "declaration" phase where you state what you are intending to do and then are committed to doing that which you declared, only that, and nothing but that. You take your actions as they come, as you decide to do, at any instant on your turn. Readied actions of others INTERRUPT your own actions and prevent them from actually taking place. Once it becomes your turn again you can do WHATEVER you like - finish what you started or do something else. If you took movement prior to having your actions interrupted then that movement is still used but nothing else you INTENDED to do has actually happened and just as on any other regular turn you can change your mind about what you then want to do (insofar as you are able to do it) or simply finish what you started. Otherwise you don't first attack and THEN the readied action occurs - the readied action occurs first and then you're left to do whatever you are still capable of doing.

This is the point upon which you are mistaken, which renders everything else you would say moot.

You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action.

If possible, the triggering action continues after the readied action. There's nothing in there about choosing a new action if the triggering action is not possible, or changing your mind about what you're going to do based on the outcome of a readied action. Much as a readied action is foiled if the trigger does not occur, the triggered action is simply foiled if it becomes no longer possible based on the outcome of a readied action. This is a core aspect of the combat engine, underlying such interactions as "closing a door to block line of sight" and "diving behind cover to avoid being shot".

Otherwise, there would be no point in readying an action to interrupt a spell being cast, since the spellcaster would always have the choice of doing something else once damage had made spellcasting impossible.

 

[radira]

Otherwise, there would be no point in readying an action to interrupt a spell being cast, since the spellcaster would always have the choice of doing something else once damage had made spellcasting impossible.

This.

Readied action is actually the broadest action defined in whole d20 and it indeed interrupts actions in the middle, if you choose to do so except some few isolated instances of heavy handed balance (ex. trip locking with AoO). Since its such a special type of action, it is actually very prone to abuse. Lets say taken actions in d20 can be changed if something went south, which action type will you be able to use after you change them? since you already used your charge action as a Full Round action, will you take it as a move action because you just moved? Not to mention charges should be in a straight line so you can't bend it to another direction to strike someone else.

It would be silly for A to READY an action with the intended result being an attack on B

Don't think so, the intended action of A was to continually hit B without getting hit in return. In my scenario sure he can hit B with a full but OP's case was not that thus it's irrelevant and even if he choose to do so he earned it with its higher initiative roll anyways, he could've just charged in the first round, thats not the planned gain.

If B DOESN'T do that action, then A's readied action would never have been triggered - but by that same logic if B CANNOT do that action anymore because A is now out of reach and B can no longer close the remaining distance then A's readied action CANNOT be triggered because the intended attack never takes place

You're right, logically ofc, but we have clear depiction of first case since that is the ready action by definition and it is it's intended use, but the latter case is not taking place. B moved, B attacked check, A didn't declare her ready as "when B damages me". This is a game and games have mechanical limitations. I just wanted to clarify that d20 have a solution for the mentioned case within its game rules.
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You could declare you were attacking while making a 5-foot step

Hmm i get what you say, it may not be a solid case as i thought in the first place, but i think you're misinterpreting the during part. Consider this, game wise its under misc actions, if you check "action types" in d20srd or pfsrd, you'll find nothing called misc type action under "action types" so we're clear it has its own set of rules to play, very unlike other structered types of actions and it has no mention of how much time it takes to do one. This leds to confusion, can you do it while doing other declared stuff since its not stated how much time it takes? You can also take immediate actions while you're doing other actions without declaring them outright and check d20srd, Table: Miscellaneous Actions, you will find 5-ft step is under no action part of misc actions.

In any case , you can declare every single attack action like this : Attack the enemy while taking 5-ft step towards it (in this case A or just pointing her grid). If she moves, you can move with her, if she does not, then it would be like trying to move towards a wall, it would fail since the wall is not moving.

Now i don't want to open a new topic about taking a move action towards a solid wall since it is prohibited to take a move to a grid which is impassable or occupied when you declared it in the first place but when you're GM, interpreting the actions, visualizing to players the 6 seconds and one of the said players insists on doing this, you will not reply "you cannot take this action" rather you say "you tried (ability drain : int) but failed miserably". If this applies, you can automatically assume every attack action is going to be taken this way from now on and no need to mention it like you don't mention you were attacking and also breathe a lot in the middle while flexing your muscles to raise your favored weapon in your left hand, vertically, to bash it on your foes head.

Even declaring beforehand like you mentioned works, consider this: A declares where to take 5-ft while readying, before B, so if B should declare where to 5-ft, A should too. B can easily see (also hear if A is a player, Metagaming) and declare a full attack while making a 5-foot towards A, since B knew A was going to backoff. Think of it like bracing against charge, it is also a ready action. If charger wouldn't knew the enemy has a spear in his hand and bracing, bracing would be something that everyone uses instead of how it is now .

Edit : Also this is not easily foiled as you suggest, it really limits the melee only fighter type plus I can think of countless encounters that can be ruined by this since you are FORCED to take another action, this can be distruptive as being forced to take a specific action.

Sorry for the wall of text and my english!

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Hmm i get what you say, it may not be a solid case as i thought in the first place, but i think you're misinterpreting the during part.

Yeah, that part does seem really weird. My only guess is that the intent is for you to split up a full-attack action, since you have to be in one position or another when you commit an action, and that's the only single action I can think of which has discrete steps but doesn't already include movement.

 

[radira]

Yeah, full round attack is the only one i can think of too , if your interpretion is the right one.

Now to think more about it though , it may depend how you play too, for ex. in my games we call actions seperately, whenever we can , like : i decide to full round attack, i roll one of my attacks, depending on the outcome, i decide to continue or hit the other adjacent guy, holding true to my decleration of full attack, then if i want i take 5 foot to somewhere. This opposes your declaring whole round approach, i dont declare say, full attack 1st guy then 2nd guy then 5 ft step back all together.

Edit : playing this way kinda opens up the possibility of calling for a 5ft when you can.

 

[smittythesmith]

I don't think you can ready two actions at a time. You can ready a free action to 5' step when someone approaches you, but you can't ready an attack *and* a 5' step.

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

I don't think you can ready two actions at a time. You can ready a free action to 5' step when someone approaches you, but you can't ready an attack *and* a 5' step.

You are allowed to take a 5' step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move in the round. But otherwise, yeah. Ready only enables ONE action to be readied, not a sequence of multiple actions. That's one of the things that limits its usefulness and one of the things about it that players thus tend to overlook.

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

Otherwise, there would be no point in readying an action to interrupt a spell being cast, since the spellcaster would always have the choice of doing something else once damage had made spellcasting impossible.

Thus, spellcasters DO have the option of choosing to do something else once damage makes spellcasting impossible. Just as ANY character has the option of choosing to do something else once a readied action interrupts their turn and makes what they were GOING to do impossible. A fighter interrupted by a readied action who is then unable to melee can instead choose to missile, drink a potion, close again and THEN attack if the target moved beyond reach, etc. etc. etc.. Again, there is no declaration in 3E and as long as you still have actions to use then you are free to use them. Some actions may be rendered moot or made impossible by readied actions, but you can then still use your actions for WHATEVER you ARE still capable of doing.