Ready Action

[thepriz]

I have a question about a trick I heard a player use.

During a characters turn in a round he readys a move action (retreat) when the monster attacks. The monster attacks him and he retreats back 5 feet. This acording to the rules seems to foil his attack because he can not make the attack now that the person is out of reach. Then the monster moves toward the group 5 ft (taking his 5 foot step). The other characters attack using ranged and then take a 5 ft step back. The decoy continues to do this until the monster tries to go after someone else. Then the decoy roll changes. Is there something wrong with the logic or is this a legal trick to use. For strong melee creatures?

 

[Darklone]

It's broken, but yes, it's right.

 

[Scharlata]

I have a question about a trick I heard a player use.

During a characters turn in a round he readys a move action (retreat) when the monster attacks. The monster attacks him and he retreats back 5 feet. This acording to the rules seems to foil his attack because he can not make the attack now that the person is out of reach. Then the monster moves toward the group 5 ft (taking his 5 foot step). The other characters attack using ranged and then take a 5 ft step back. The decoy continues to do this until the monster tries to go after someone else. Then the decoy roll changes. Is there something wrong with the logic or is this a legal trick to use. For strong melee creatures?

Hi!

Try to prevent this letting the creature charge, bull rush, trample, snatch, or overrun the decoy.

Give the creature a ranged attack or reach, if possible.

Corner the decoy. Let her be tripped (to stand up or crawl away for the creature to gain AoOs).

Reverse the action: Let the creature wait for a good opportunity (best option: the archers, because they have ranged weapons in hand, and using them may result in AoOs for the creature). You can do this with the creature's own ready action?

Maybe that can adjust the situation.

Kind regards

 

[green slime]

It is not broken. If the only thing a character does, is ready a 5-foot step if he is attacked, he will not be contributing very much when the opponent attacks someone else, now then, will he...

Overrun is the easy answer. Overrun the culprit, (he is then knocked prone) and continue into the next twit. This twit gets axed/mangled/shredded.

The entire team cannot ready an action. Especially if they are shooting arrows at the same time. Do not charge / overrun those that have the readied action, charge those that have already used their action to fire arrows, and sunder their bows! Against a large combat monster, bows are kindling. Even a +2 Bow has what, 9 hardness, 25 hp?

Some monsters may be stupid enough to fall for this trick, but not all. Very few would continue to follow such a futile path without consideration for their own well-being.

 

[Li Shenron]

This trick makes me think of the legendary paradox of Achilles running after the turtle and never reaching it. There were lots of people believing that was actually true...

 

[pvandyck]

OK, let me understand. Guy goes first, readies an action to 5ft step back (avoiding AOO) when the monster moves up and attacks. Monster goes, does a move action to move up, and is going to attack. Ready action triggers (before the attack), and the guy moves (withdraws) 5ft back.

Now, if I were controlling the monster, I wouldn't stand there going "damn", I'D DO MY SECOND MOVE ACTION AND MOVE UP TO THE GUY AGAIN. My reasoning being, the monster still has the rest of it's round. In my opinion, there's no decarative phase here, where the monster is obligated to attack the guy he intended. Before the monster attacked, the guy moved, therefore the attack didn't happen yet. The monster can attack something else in range, whatever.

Now, in my example, the guy (and anyone else in reach of this apparent 5' reach monster) would need to withdraw again to avoid my wrath. The guy still goes first (because the ready action inserts the guy in the initiative before the monster). He can't ready a withdraw action (because it's a full-round action), but he can arguably ready a 5-ft step when attacked. When the monster goes he steps back. Fine. When the guy is done moving back 5ft, the monster (which hasn't done any actions yet), does a 5ft step and full attacks the guy.

If the guy doen't want to do all this readying trickness, he can simply withdraw (double move) away from the monster. The guy's buddies that are in range of a move and attack from the monster are in danger, and I got the impression that they are trying ranged attacks, not all readying to move back if the monster melee attacks. If none of the buy's buddies are in range, the monster can charge (a full round action, yes - but the monster hasn't done anything yet), which is a double move, at the guy who withdrew. It's unlikely that the guy who withdrew is out of range.

I think the key is that simply because you readied to avoid an attack doesn't mean that the monster looses its action. It never got to attack, so it can attack something else, or continue moving. I WOULD make the monster use up an entire move getting there, even if it only moved 10 ft, but it's still got a move action left, in my opinion.

pvandyck

 

[Henry]

Also, it depends on how the ready is worded. If it's "If the monster moves to within 5 feet of me, I retreat 5 feet," then it doesn't matter if he does, because when the monster moves, if he still has movement left, the monster can COMPLETE his move by moving the extra 5 feet, and then attack. It's the same reason you can't legally get away with "if the wizard casts a spell, I run away" - the wizard starts casting which triggers the action. The action happens, the wizard THEN finishes casting and chooses targets. VOILA! you haven't avoided anything at all!

Same thing with the monster's move - if the monster is, say, 15 feet away, and starts moving, your action goes off BEFORE it completes its move, not after. So all it has to do, is move 20 feet, not 15.

 

[two]

This all hinges on if "when X attacks" is a valid trigger. I would assume it is.

Yes you can ready an action to "move back 5' when the monster attacks me."

So the monster moves 20', attacks, and triggers the action. You move back 5', and the monster is stuck there attacking air.

This assumes the monster does not have reach!

This kind of routine works best when the readier has a reach weapon and the attacker does not.

Reach PC: I ready a 5' move back when X attacks.
X: Moves 20' up to attack. Reach PC gets AOO from movement. X attacks. Reach PC moves 5' from the readied action and X's attack is against air. X can't move again becuase he's used up a move and an attack.

Reach PC now 5' from X.

PC turn. PC does full attack and steps back 5'.

X now 10' from PC.

X moves up to PC, draws AOO from PC, gets single attack.

PC drops back another 5' and does a full attack.

The net resut is the Reach PC gets 2 AOO's from movement and a full attack before X gets even one attack.

After X finally gets an attack, the Reach PC has taken 2 AOO's from movement, and got 2 full attacks in.

If the Reach PC has 2 attacks a round, that's a 6 attacks to 1 ratio. Pretty useful. Only requires one "readied" action.

 

[thepriz]

OK, let me understand. Guy goes first, readies an action to 5ft step back (avoiding AOO) when the monster moves up and attacks. Monster goes, does a move action to move up, and is going to attack. Ready action triggers (before the attack), and the guy moves (withdraws) 5ft back.

Now, if I were controlling the monster, I wouldn't stand there going "damn", I'D DO MY SECOND MOVE ACTION AND MOVE UP TO THE GUY AGAIN. My reasoning being, the monster still has the rest of it's round. In my opinion, there's no decarative phase here, where the monster is obligated to attack the guy he intended. Before the monster attacked, the guy moved, therefore the attack didn't happen yet. The monster can attack something else in range, whatever.

See I would agree but the ready action says that you can specify that you can specify to make your move when the monster attacks you. It also states that "Assuming he is still capable he continues his action once the ready action is complete". It does not say that the creature can change his action.

Now, in my example, the guy (and anyone else in reach of this apparent 5' reach monster) would need to withdraw again to avoid my wrath. The guy still goes first (because the ready action inserts the guy in the initiative before the monster). He can't ready a withdraw action (because it's a full-round action), but he can arguably ready a 5-ft step when attacked. When the monster goes he steps back. Fine. When the guy is done moving back 5ft, the monster (which hasn't done any actions yet), does a 5ft step and full attacks the guy.

If the guy doen't want to do all this readying trickness, he can simply withdraw (double move) away from the monster. The guy's buddies that are in range of a move and attack from the monster are in danger, and I got the impression that they are trying ranged attacks, not all readying to move back if the monster melee attacks. If none of the buy's buddies are in range, the monster can charge (a full round action, yes - but the monster hasn't done anything yet), which is a double move, at the guy who withdrew. It's unlikely that the guy who withdrew is out of range.

I think the key is that simply because you readied to avoid an attack doesn't mean that the monster looses its action. It never got to attack, so it can attack something else, or continue moving. I WOULD make the monster use up an entire move getting there, even if it only moved 10 ft, but it's still got a move action left, in my opinion.

pvandyck

Again the book states that the triger of the action by the pc was "if the monster attacks me". The book states that the ready action is triggered when the monster attacks him and he moves back. This causes him to be out of range and the monster then can not perform his action so the monster is unable to perform his action.

 

[Philip]

Is there something wrong with the logic or is this a legal trick to use. For strong melee creatures?

It may be legal in the literal sense, but I think it's a major cheese.

It can get even worse: when I created my first Fighter with a reach weapon I immediately thought of this.

1. You ready to attack the enemy if he attacks you.
2. Enemy moves to within 5 ft. : Attack of Opportunity with glaive
3. Enemy attacks : you attack first due to your ready action, then you take your 5 ft. step, foiling his attack.

Then repeat.

I would too embarassed to even try this on my DM.