Rebalancing the Summon Monster spells

[Gaiden]

Sheeplord -

Well, your right, you don't need 38 lantern archons...but...

Come on - picture 38 of those balls of light surrounding one target in three dimensions all just having instantly appeared from their teleport w/o error spells, each firing 4 rays a round of intense light. Just imagine the visual effect, its something out of a futuristic anime (picture gundam wing). ...And no, you don't really need 38 - 30's probably fine .

Seriously though, the point of this thread was to argue that summon spells are underpowered. I must wholeheartedly disagree. Even smackdowns talk in terms of 16th level characters doing 200+ damage. By 14th (or 13th if your not concerned about DR) from summon spells your dishing out 1700 damage!!!

In fact, that makes summon spells some of the most powerful in the game.

 

[Zhure]

I'm baffled by the very notion that Summon Monster is underpowered. Sure, low level SMs are weak, but so are low level spells. At mid-range and up, that changes. A fiendish dire ape is a death machine to any non-fighter.

Because of the casting utility, almost every Sorcerer I've seen has at least 1 or two mid-range SM spells just to get access to a few more spells and some healing.

While Summon Nature's Ally is a bit weaker, the normal animals can easily be augmented by a Druid with other spells. The Elementals are where SNA becomes more useful in combat.

Greg

 

[bitbug]

Now of course you can still dispel summoned monsters just as any other spell, but this spell completely bypasses Spell Resistance. After your third magic missile has been resisted into a useless burst of light, you'd really want 4 semi-decent monsters flanking instead.
/

What SM I monster is going to do any damage to said monster? That magic missile and fireball are instantaneous isn't the proper benchmark. The proper benchmark is "how much average damage does the monster do to the target compared to another spell of similar level?" Do you really think that an SM III monster is going to end up doing 35 damage (average of 10th level fireball) against the average opponents of a 10th level party? I don't. Worse than that, summon monster lacks an important ingredient: self-sufficiency. If you have to have somebody else around to justify how good a spell is (e.g. flanking) that spell is seriously underpowered.

 

[bitbug]

I'm baffled by the very notion that Summon Monster is underpowered. Sure, low level SMs are weak, but so are low level spells.

The benchmark spells magic missile, fireball, lightning bolt, and haste are weak?

At mid-range and up, that changes. A fiendish dire ape is a death machine to any non-fighter.

When did a creature with +8 to hit and 32 hp become a death machine to anything?

 

[SheepLord]

By bitbug (sorry haven't figured the Quote thing out yet):

"Do you really think that an SM III monster is going to end up doing 35 damage (average of 10th level fireball) against the average opponents of a 10th level party? I don't."

You don't eh? Well bitbug, let's fix your misconceptions of Fireball. In doing this, I'm not proving that Summon Monster is better, but that it is balanced with Fireball in all ways.

35 is the average damage ROLLED from a Fireball cast by a 10th level wizard. It is not the damage which the characters will take. By 10th level some of the characters could have spell resistance or a type of fire resistance. Either from an item, or temporary from a spell. I haven't even mentioned saves, high dex, Lightning Reflexes, Evasion, or Imp. Evasion. Suddenly that 35 damage Fireball becomes alot less scary. Even if the characters fail their saves and cannot ignore the damage, the fighter which probably didn't duck in time has an average of around 60 hit points, and that's -without- any con bonuses.

All of those things: the saves, the resistances, evasion, etc. are all bypassed by Summon Monster. SM -does- have to worry about high character armour class and attack bonuses because they are creatures which need to hit and which can be hit.

"If you have to have somebody else around to justify how good a spell is (e.g. flanking) that spell is seriously underpowered."

You have to have somebody to cast Fireball at or it's basically useless; Summoned Monsters can still be damned handy without enemies for them to fight.

Charm Person is only justified by having somebody else around.

With Summon spells the caster (and the summoned creature) can benefit from the flanking help since the caster probably has a lower BAB. Flanking is a major, planned benefit from this spell, not some kind of lamely minor perk.

Any Wizard by themselves casting Fireball to save themselves is probably already dead.


Each spell has a niche to fill. Just because some players cannot figure out the niche does not make the spell bad or underpowered. Fireball has it's niche, Summon Monster has it's niche. Pick which best fits your style.

 

[Soltares]

The idea that some people consider Summon Monster underpowered just baffles me.

Every game I've played in 3E has made extensive use of it. It is the favored spell of every Cleric and Wizard we've had in our groups. It utterly kicks.

We've only had one specialist mage so far, a Conjuror, go figure, and don't bother guessing what his bonus spells where, they all started with Summon and ended with Monster.

I can't believe how much more powerful it is than it was in 2nd (or 1st) editions, and it beats the heck out of any old evocation.

*Before* the options in Manual of the Planes, the Alienist PrC, the Augment Summoning Feat, the Conjure Mastery Feat, the Ring of Blue/Red Conjures (from BoEM1), the additional summon options on the WotC website or the wonderful Summoner PrC in R&R, Summon Monster was really the most useful spell you could take at EVERY spell level. It is even better now, with all these extra options.

Some truly nasty Summoner smacks can be made involving Cold Elemental Girallons or Pseudonatural Elder Earth Elementals.

And all the 'bonus' spells that come free with Lantern Archons (free Continual Flames!), Imps, Quasits (cheapest Commune in the game!), Dretches, Erinyes, Djinni, etc? Just gravy.

If only there were more Feats geared towards Conjuration, such as a Persistant Summons Feat that allowed a summoned creature to be kept all day, or a 'Elemental Lace' Feat like those in BoEM1 that affected a summoned creature (although perhaps it would balance better if only one attack / round from the creature could inflict the extra elemental damage, to prevent Fiendish Squids from becoming death machines...).

 

[Gez]

My own lists (all is official, somehow), including the addenda on the WotC website and on Creature Collection 2.

For the summoned monster templates, I allow to swap celestial/fiendish to anarchic/axiomatic as long as the alignment stay compatible. So, for example, rather than a celestial dog (LG creature), a summoner can get an axiomatic dog.

If the templated creature is a bit neutral, I allow to switch the template to elemental. So, for example, a summoner could get a fire element monkey rather than a celestial monkey, or a air element owl, or a earth element baboon. Alignment imay be switched to true neutral in these case.

Furthermore, any creature have its template switched to shadow when using Shadow Conjuration (or one of its variant) to mimic Summon Monster. So, if using Shades to call forth a celestial brown bear, you'll get a shadow brown bear instead.

Finally, it is possible to add a template among these (celestial, fiendish, anarchic, axiomatic, elemental, shadow, pseudonatural) to any creature by using a summon spell one level higher. So, if you want a pseudonatural succubus (you pervert ) or a shadow gynosphinx that is a Summon Monster 9 spell for you.

This is especially useful for Summon Nature's Ally spells, where you could buff a little the creaturesby giving them an element template.

As long as it's not too much silly, you can stack templates. So, a pseudonatural anarchic shadow hawk could be summoned by Summon Monster 3. The pseudonatural fiendish wood-element shadow owl would be SM4, assuming I'm allowing such a silly beast.

Summon Aquatic Animal I

• 1 Crocodile
• 1d3+1/3 levels Drowned Lady (CC1)
• 1 Ebon Eel (CC1)
• 1+1/5 levels Octopus
• 1+1/4 levels Porpoise
• 1 Medium-Size Shark
• 1 Squid

Summon Aquatic Animal 2

• 1+1/5 levels Crocodile
• 1 Crocodile, Giant
• 1d10+1/2 levels Drowned Lady (CC1)
• 1d4+1/5 levels Ebon Eel (CC1)
• 1d4+1/5 levels Octopus
• 1d4+1/3 levels Porpoise
• 1d4+1/5 levels Medium-Size Shark
• 1d4+1/5 levels Squid
• 1/10 levels Orca Whale

Summon Aquatic Humanoid 1

• 1d3 +1/3 levels Bullywug (MoF)
• 1 Sea Hag
• 1d3 Kuo-Toa
• 1d3 Lizardfolk
• 1d3+1/3 levels Locathah
• 1d4+1/3 levels Merfolk
• 1d3 Sahuagin
• 1d4+1/3 levels Shalarin (MoF)
• 1d3 +1/3 levels Siv (MoF)
• 1 Triton

Summon Aquatic Humanoid 2

• 1d2 Alligator Warrior (CC1)
• 1d12 +1/2 levels Bullywug (MoF)
• 1 Brine Hag (CC1)
• 1+1/3 levels Sea Hag
• 1d4+1/2 levels Kuo-Toa
• 1d4+1/2 levels Lizardfolk
• 1d6+1/2 levels Locathah
• 1d12+1/2 levels Merfolk
• 1 Green Piscean (CC2)
• 1d4+1/2 levels Sahuagin
• 1d12+1/2 levels Shalarin (MoF)
• 1d12 +1/2 levels Siv (MoF)
• 1 +1/2 levels Triton

Summon Aquatic Monster

• Aquantis (CC)
• Blood Kraken (CC)
• Elasmosaurus
• Sea Lion
• Scrag Troll
• Large Water Elemental

Summon Monster 1

• Celestial dog (animal) LG
• Celestial monkey (animal) NG
• Celestial badger (animal) CG
• Fiendish dire rat LE
• Fiendish baboon (animal) NE
• Fiendish owl (animal) NE
• Fiendish hawk (animal) CE

Summon Monster 2

• Celestial riding dog (animal) LG
• Celestial light horse (animal) NG
• Celestial eagle (animal) CG
• Formian worker LN
• Shadowraven N (CC2)
• Lemure (devil) LE
• Fiendish giant bee (vermin) LE
• Fiendish squid (animal) LE
• Fiendish wolf (animal) LE
• Fiendish heavy horse (animal) NE
• Fiendish shark, Medium-size (animal) NE
• Fiendish viper, Tiny (animal) CE
• Fiendish hyena (animal) [treat as wolf (animal)] CE
• Fiendish octopus (animal) CE

Summon Monster 3

• Celestial black bear (animal) LG
• Celestial bison (animal) NG
• Triton NG
• Celestial cheetah (animal) CG
• Celestial dire badger CG
• Azer LN
• Elemental, Small N
• Thoqqua N
• Fiendish black bear (animal) LE
• Fiendish dire weasel LE
• Fiendish gorilla (animal) LE
• Fiendish snake, constrictor (animal) LE
• Fiendish boar (animal) NE
• Fiendish dire bat NE
• Fiendish lizard, giant (animal) NE
• Fiendish shark, Large (animal) NE
• Salamander, Small NE
• Dretch CE
• Fiendish dire badger CE
• Fiendish viper, Small (animal) CE
• Fiendish crocodile (animal) CE
• Fiendish leopard (animal) CE
• Fiendish wolverine (animal) CE

Summon Monster 4

• Lantern archon (celestial) LG
• Giant eagle NG
• Giant owl NG
• Celestial lion (animal) CG
• Arrowhawk, Small N
• Stormchild N (CC2)
• Tojanida, Small N
• Xorn, Small N
• Magmin CN
• Fiendish dire ape LE
• Fiendish dire wolf LE
• Hell hound LE
• Imp (devil) LE
• Stench Toad NE (CC2)
• Vargouille NE
• Fiendish viper, Medium-size (animal) CE
• Howler CE

Summon Monster 5

• Celestial brown bear (animal) LG
• Hound archon (celestial) LG
• Celestial baleen whale (animal) NG
• Celestial orca whale (animal) NG
• Celestial dire lion CG
• Celestial pegasus CG
• Formian warrior LN
• Arrowhawk, Medium-size N
• Elemental, Medium-size N
• Mephit, any N
• Tojanida, Medium-size N
• Achaierai LE
• Fiendish griffon LE
• Fiendish snake, giant constrictor (animal) LE
• Heartclutch (Devil) LE (CC2)
• Fiendish dire boar NE
• Fiendish rhinoceros (animal) NE
• Fiendish shark, Large (animal) NE
• Fiendish whale, orca (animal) NE
• Salamander, Medium-size NE
• Shadow mastiff NE
• Skiver NE (CC2)
• Yeth hound NE
• Fiendish viper, Large (animal) CE
• Quasit CE
• Fiendish dire lion CE
• Fiendish dire wolverine CE
• Fiendish giant crocodile (animal) CE
• Fiendish girallon CE
• Fiendish tiger (animal) CE

Summon Monster 6

• Celestial dire bear LG
• Celestial cachalot whale (animal) NG
• Celestial unicorn CG
• Dreamfolk N (CC2)
• Elemental, Large N
• Rast N
• Xorn, Medium-size N
• Slaad, red CN
• Chaos beast CN
• Fiendish dire bear LE
• Kyton LE
• Barbazu (devil) LE
• Hellcat LE
• Erinyes (devil) LE
• Belker NE
• Grisly Minstrel (daemon) NE (CC2)
• Abyssal Lamprey CE (CC2)
• Fiendish viper, Huge snake (animal) CE

Summon Monster 7

• Avoral guardinal (celestial) NG
• Celestial elephant (animal) NG
• Celestial treant NG
• Djinni CG
• Elemental, Huge N
• Invisible stalker N
• Ravid [alone] N
• Xorn, Large N
• Arrowhawk, Large N
• Tojanida, Large N
• Slaad, blue CN
• Grotesque Herder LE (CC2)
• Hamatula (devil) LE
• Osyluth (devil) LE
• Fiendish elephant NE
• Bebilith CE
• Fiendish dire tiger CE
• Fiendish octopus, giant (animal) CE
• Leonine Demon CE (CC2)

Summon Monster 8

• Celestial gynosphinx NG
• Celestial androsphinx CG
• Lillend CG
• Formian taskmaster [alone] LN
• Janni (genie) N
• Elemental, greater N
• Dreamwraith CN (CC2)
• Barghest, Medium-size LE
• Cornugon (devil) LE
• Darkling sentinel LE (CC2)
• Fiendish squid, giant (animal) LE
• Shackledeath LE (CC2)
• Plague angel (daemon) NE (CC2)
• Salamander, Large NE
• Feral [pack of 15] CE (CC1)
• Succubus (demon) CE

Summon Monster 9

• Couatl LG
• Lammasu LG
• Astral deva (celestial) NG
• Ghaele eladrin (celestial) CG
• Elemental, elder N
• Barghest, Large LE
• Gelugon (devil) LE
• Iron devil LE (CC2)
• Rakshasa LE
• Xill LE
• Fiendish roc NE
• Moon daemon NE (CC2)
• Night hag NE
• Nightmare NE
• Blade demon CE (CC2)
• Locust demon CE (CC2)
• Vrock (demon) CE

Summon Nature's Ally 1

• Badger (animal)
• Dire rat
• Dog (animal)
• Hawk (animal)
• Viper, Tiny (animal)

Summon Nature's Ally 2

• Blood Sprite (CC2)
• Eagle (animal)
• Hyena [treat as wolf (animal)]
• Octopus (animal)
• Runnk (CC1)
• Seaspark (CC1)
• Shark, Medium-size (animal)
• Squid (animal)
• Wolf (animal)
• Viper, Small (animal)

Summon Nature's Ally 3

• Albadian battle dog (CC1)
• Ape (animal)
• Black bear (animal)
• Bison (animal)
• Boar (animal)
• Crescent elk (CC1)
• Crocodile (animal)
• Dire badger
• Dire bat
• Dire weasel
• Elemental, Small
• Frost ape (CC1)
• Leopard (animal)
• Lightning hawk (CC2)
• Lizard, giant (animal)
• Night Terror (CC1)
• Salamander, Small NE
• Satyr [without pipes]
• Shark, Large (animal)
• Snake, constrictor (animal)
• Thoqqua
• Viper, Medium-size (animal)
• Vrail (CC1)
• Wolverine (animal)

Summon Nature's Ally 4

• Arrowhawk, Small
• Assassin vine
• Desert falcon (CC1)
• Dire ape
• Dire monitor (CC1)
• Dire wolf
• Dwarf hound (CC1)
• Giant eagle NG
• Giant owl NG
• Grig (sprite) [without fiddle] NG
• Lion (animal)
• Phantom fungus
• Plaguecat (CC1)
• Razorfin dolphin (CC2)
• Rumbler (CC1)
• Tojanida, Small
• Viper, Large (animal)
• Xorn, Small

Summon Nature's Ally 5

• Arrowhawk, Medium-size
• Brown bear (animal)
• Dire boar
• Dire lion
• Dire wolverine
• Elemental, Medium-size
• Giant crocodile (animal)
• Hamadryad (CC1)
• Orca whale (animal)
• Pyre (CC1)
• Rhinoceros (animal)
• River Nymph (CC1)
• Salamander, Medium-size NE
• Satyr [with pipes]
• Shard spider (CC2)
• Shark, Large (animal)
• Snake, giant constrictor (animal)
• Thunder kite (CC2)
• Tiger (animal)
• Tojanida, Medium-size
• Viper, Huge (animal)

Summon Nature's Ally 6

• Dire bear
• Elemental, Large
• Emperor stag (CC1)
• Forge wight (CC1)
• Shambling mound
• Sleet devil (CC1)
• Skyquill (CC1)
• Tendriculos
• Unicorn CG
• Willow tree warrior (CC1)
• Windrider (CC2)
• Xorn, Medium-size

Summon Nature's Ally 7

• Arrowhawk, Large
• Cloudsting (CC2)
• Dire tiger
• Elemental, Huge
• Elephant (animal)
• Octopus, giant (animal)
• Pixie [can't cast Otto's irresistible dance] NG
• Tojanida, Large
• Treant NG
• Xorn, Large

Summon Nature's Ally 8

• Elemental, greater
• Hanid (CC1)
• Muskhorn (CC1)
• Salamander, Large NE
• Squid, giant (animal)
• Tundra lord (CC2)

Summon Nature's Ally 9

• Elemental, elder
• Great harrier (CC1)
• Pixie [can cast Otto's irresistible dance] NG

Summon Undead I

• Medium-size skeleton
• Small zombie

Summon Undead 2

• Medium-size zombie
• Large skeleton

Summon Undead 3

• Large zombie
• Ghoul
• Huge skeleton

Summon Undead 4

• Allip
• Ghast
• Huge zombie

Summon Undead 5

• Mummy
• Shadow
• Wight
• Vampire spawn

My favorite summon ? Summon Monster IX: 1d3 pack of 15 ferals... With a little luck, 45 beasts. Now, that's when you use instant metamagic abilities on empower spell...

 

[Zhure]

When did a creature with +8 to hit and 32 hp become a death machine to anything?

-Rend (Ex): A dire ape that hits with both claw attacks latches onto the opponent’s body and tears the flesh. This automatically deals an additional 2d6+12 points of damage.

-10 feet of reach.

-It's Fiendish (for Summon Monster, not for SNA), which adds smite (+ HD) damage) once per day. This also means it has 10 points of Cold and Fire Resistance and Damage Reduction 5/+1.

Throw in the ubiquitous flanking situation (because that's when one uses Summon Monter most effectively) and if you're a wizard, that's pretty ferocious, especially at 7th level. Tack on the meat-shield aspect of Summoned Monsters and I think it ranks up with Fireball and it's far more discriminate. I've seen a 9th level Sorcerer torn apart by a Fiendish Dire Ape in one round before he could react to it at all.

Summoned critters are really dangerous if they're ordered intelligently by the summoner. "Hit him as he casts!" Assuming the FDA hits, you force a concentration check even if they're casting defensively. With 10 feet of reach, the foe can't backpedal and cast if he starts off adjacent. If he double moves away he probably gets hit anyway because of the reach. If the enemy caster casts Magic Circle or something at the FDA, you're winning because he's reacting to your spell and not you.

Greg

 

[Zhure]

If you're making a summon smackdown, don't forget to take two non-conflicting Alignment Domains (like Lawful and Good, or Chaotic and Evil) to match your alignment. They both add unnamed "+1 caster level" for spells of that alignment. Thus, a 20th level LG caster with Law and Good could summon a Couatl as if he were 22nd level, increasing the range and duration.

Same for the Summoning Domain.

Greg

 

[Madfox]

Summon Moster spells are definitely not worth tweaking, they are quite good as it is. Only the lower level variants are quite weak, especially since you cannot communicate with these creatures and that they they stay only 1 rd/lvl. Still, even then they are useful as distractions or to draw all ready actions to themselves.

Perhaps the idea of allowing communication with the summoned creature is not too bad an idea. At least you can use them more easily to bash down doors, set of traps and sniff out ambushes.

I have seen xorns deal with the regular ogres so that the group could deal with the ogre mage. Small earth elementals walks through the floor to rise up at the other side of the door to open the barred door. Celestial Dire Lions distract an erinyes so that she could not coup-de-grace a held companion (in fact the dire lion killed the erinyes thanks to his scent ability, good jumping skills and pounce ability).