Rebutting a fallacy: why I await 5e (without holding my breath)

[Reynard]

Why on earth would WotC do something like this when all of the options are already available and in print? I don't know how many old school games have been released in the last year, but I'm certain you can play OE, 1E, Holmes, BECMI, 2E and certainly 3x through games that are out and have filed the serial numbers off.

The problem is twofold:

1) WotC does not get any income from the thousands of people buying and playing those previous versions of D&D.

2) WotC has no control over those previous versions of D&D.

For the stewards of D&D, if not one of the biggest certainly one of the most beloved modern american pop-culture inventions, both of those are signs of a failure in that stewardship. It works for *me* that I can buy new stuff for any edition of D&D, but if I were the owner of D&D it would be a serious problem and I would be searching for a way to remedy it.

 

[RainOfSteel]

You have that sideways. Grognards prefer Napoleon, it's part of the definition of the word.

Well, Napoleon is one of my all-time favorite deserts. </yum, yum>

Grognard has come to cover more than just wargamers. It refers strongly to those who desire to crunch, crunch, crunch away at the rules, especially older rulesets that have more twists or gaps and are easily subject to house rules that the grognards invent.

I've been a Traveller grognard for quite a while. Heck, my last activity was sitting around and inventing a completely fictional communications protocol for interstellar travel and traffic control in the Third Imperium, pursuant to the equally invented Edict 52 (Imperial Measures and Technology Standards).

 

[Water Bob]

1. As many grognards are only too happy to point out, "rules lite" and "old school" are not the same thing.

It is possible to serve those interested in rules lite and those who like crunch. Is it easy to do well? No. But, with some excellent game design, it can be done.

What you do is create a core mechanic, and then you leave the sub-systems optional. A GM can get as crunchy or as rules lite as he wants.

For example, let's look at 3.5 E. You make the core d20 mechanic all anyone needs to play the game. Skill and ability checks are up to the DM. Roll STR or less on 3d6 to force open that dungeon door. Whatever you want.

Next, you have the skill system that can be used with the core mechanic optionally.

Feat system becomes optional too.

And, so on.

In the end, the game suits everyone's taste because it can be customized.

 

[Lanefan]

I won't speculate on the business wisdom of such an edition, but it sure would be nice to have one that combines TSR simplicity with WotC's unified d20 and 4e's focus on balance.

Heh...I wish you luck designing that one. You'll need it.

Lanefan

 

[pawsplay]

I think, in the balance, there is very little D&D has to be. As long as it's entertaining enough, and financially feasible, for 40+% of their existing fanbase to adopt the new edition, the new edition could be heavy, lite, old school, dungeonpunk... anything you could name, as long as the elements are palatable to the existing base and the overal package is appealing (and different) enough.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Heh...I wish you luck designing that one. You'll need it.

Lanefan

Thanks, I'll get around to writing my fantasy heartbreaker someday.

Really, simplicity and balance are pretty easy to write. It's D&D's cornucopia of character options that are the tough part.

 

[Vespucci]

Grognard has come to cover more than just wargamers. It refers strongly to those who desire to crunch, crunch, crunch away at the rules, especially older rulesets that have more twists or gaps and are easily subject to house rules that the grognards invent.

Swoosh!

"Grognard" does mean more than wargamer (or, for that matter, Napoleon's Garde Impériale). It really refers to an old campaigner - in wargames, they typically love lots of counters and maps of Europe. In RPGs, they typically love oD&D and/or 1e.

That's all the term means. Crunch and rules-lite have nothing to do with it.

 

[WayneLigon]

There was a time when D&D games were imaginative and not an unending litany of meta-language and game mechanics.

"I charge the orc, cleaving it nearly in half with my greatsword and kicking it's corpse off of the blade" is a lot more evocative than:

"I charge 6 squares, rolling a 28 with my spirited charge feat and activate the overwhelming critical power on my + 3 berserker sword, doing +4[W] damage on my daily".

1977

"You come around the corner. Six inches away is a mind flayer. Init."
"Jeez. 10." "3, dammit" "9"
"It has a 12. Psi points are 62."
"I'm psi, so is Roger."
"What's your defense, then?"
"Tower of Iron Will." "Um, I just have Thought SHield"
"Really? Dang."
"Its 60 feet away, that's a -2 to it's THACO." "Another -1, it has to come through the door."
"Dungeon doors are always locked!"
"Except for monsters, duh."
"Psi actions are ten-to-one."
"Where did you get that?"
"I ready my +1 sword, +2 against aquatic stuff and move five inches up."
"It doesn't live in the water."
"Looks like an octopus to me."
"Cephalopod."
"Still not aquatic."
And so on.

 

[catastrophic]

So who gets to be Basic and who gets to be Advanced this time?
I'm happy with either one.

 

[Ron]

Well, Napoleon is one of my all-time favorite deserts. </yum, yum>

Grognard has come to cover more than just wargamers. It refers strongly to those who desire to crunch, crunch, crunch away at the rules, especially older rulesets that have more twists or gaps and are easily subject to house rules that the grognards invent.

I've been a Traveller grognard for quite a while. Heck, my last activity was sitting around and inventing a completely fictional communications protocol for interstellar travel and traffic control in the Third Imperium, pursuant to the equally invented Edict 52 (Imperial Measures and Technology Standards).

I don't know, I believe Grognard is more usually associated with veterans, especially those who prefers old games. Personally, I am a rpg/ wargamer player since 1981. My rpg group are players from more less the same period whreas the guys which I usually play wargames are somewhat older, having start playing at the middle to late 70s. We are very fond of some old games, including Traveller you mentioned, and thus we consider ourselves grognards. You know, some prefer cruchier but most -- and by most I mean almost everyone -- moved to simpler systems. I was in love with crunch in the 80s, but I don't have time to waste anymore with something that I currently view as a barrier to my playing experience. I know how exciting crunch can be as I liked it a long time ago but I moved on. We like to play either simple SPI games from the 70s, before crunch destroyed the wargame industry, or some of newer designed games in which complexity is somewhat restricted to cards, keeping the play experience simpler. And yes, it seems that the euro game simplicity is doing a good job in rescuing wargaming a little bit.

Speaking of roleplaying games, we prefer playing RC D&D or AD&D because is simpler. However, Moongose Traveller, the current edition of the old game, is our preferred version. What Moongose did right when WotC failed at our eyes? They kept the game simple, true to its origins, mostly compatible with classic editions, and cleaned up the clumsy old rules with modern design. As a matter of fact, Traveller is a good exemple what WotC should do. Traveller core was always light (except for the dark NewEra edition), whereas supplements like Striker brought enjoyment to those who liked to design complex things more than actually roleplaying. The core book is fairly complete and presents a relatively light rule system that pleases players like me. However, crunch oriented fans can get their fix in several supplements that, I guess, make Rain of Steel happy.