D&D 5E Red Flags For Classes In Sources Beyond The Player's Handbook

[Warmaster Horus]

This sounds like an unnecessary practice with regard to character generation. If there's something specific to the campaign you're running, that's fine. But if you're blocking stuff just 'cause you've heard the Internet sez it's bad, I wouldn't sweat it. The toughest I'd go for general coverage might be PH + 1, but I doubt I'd do that for a private game.

 

[Mistwell]

If you eliminate multiclassing, I think you take care of 90% of the issues with non-PHB sources. In fact, if you just require a minimum of 5 levels of a class before you can multiclass you get basically the same benefit.

Most remaining issues are not really a non-PHB source issue. Most of the remaining red flags are found in the feats in the PHB. If you eliminated a handful of feats, you can take care of that issue as well.

Finally some remaining issues for some people can be managed on a setting basis. For example, if you want to give a boost to sword and board strength-based fighter-types, you can can control your magic items carefully (almost no magic polearms, almost no magic bows, almost no magic light armor, plenty of magic longswords, and some magic plate armor and magic shields).

 

[neogod22]

Yes, sorry, I misspoke. I was referring to the argument that the hexblade is such a superior patron to all of the others.

Now, I personally understand the role-playing aspect, and why the others can be a good choice (I have a very cool warlock with the tome pact rolled up, but alas, I DM all the time and don't get to play...), but I am going to have some new players in my Game. Oft times when new players come from the nuts & bolts crunch of video games (where there is one true build), or the high numbers of a 3E/PF game, then they tend to gravitate towards something that obviously looks more powerful. I would like to remove that as much as I can...

I beg to differ. I think fiend pact makes a better pact of the blade warlock. The only advantage Hexblade has, is you don't have to divide your stats, but if you build your warlock right, it you won't need to try and max out CHA.

 

[CapnZapp]

If I had to guess, that they are power creep when compared to some previous subclasses.

But isn't that the point?

(Upgrades that make you want to play bladelocks and berserkers)

 

[i_dont_meta]

What if WotC had a hidden agenda to purposefully nerf the Ranger to keep the table ratio more balanced? Myself? I'd been a hard-core Ranger from AD&D 2nd thru 4E and I wasn't alone. We had no idea who Aragorn was but we still knew that Rangers were the coolest cats in town...and then 5E came along and blew them $#!+$ up! No joke, I think I've seen more Monks than Rangers at my table since 5E released.

 

[Olrox17]

But isn't that the point?

(Upgrades that make you want to play bladelocks and berserkers)

Yes. Another recent example is the UA brute vs the champion. Wotc doesn't want to use errata to fix underpowered subclasses, so they decided to tackle the issue by just releasing new, superior ones. The problem with this approach is that you end up with a game littered with trap options.

I don't mind the Zealot much, because it kills only the garbage berserker. The hexblade, however, is mechanically superior to all the other patrons, at least at low-mid levels. It's also a ridiculously powerful level dip for bards and paladins. Very problematic.

 

[CapnZapp]

The problem with this approach is that you end up with a game littered with trap options.

I'm not contesting the "game littered with trap options" part of your statement. But I am contesting the "end up with" part - it's not the introduction of the zealot that makes the berserker a trap option. If it is a trap option it is because it always was.

Why? Because the berserker is completely unchanged.

 

[CapnZapp]

In other words, the problem with the approach isn't that it creates trap options. The problem with the approach is that it doesn't clean up existing trap options.

Arguably this is the smaller problem, which together with the non-invalidating of the PHB, is why WotC chose that approach.

(Creating powercreep is still an issue, but unrelated to what I am talking about here. Not trying to defend the specifics of the Hexblade. Instead it's about honestly evaluating an approach where new subclasses supplant rather than replace existing ones: it has flaws, sure, but not the big one so often mentioned)

 

[Olrox17]

I'm not contesting the "game littered with trap options" part of your statement. But I am contesting the "end up with" part - it's not the introduction of the zealot that makes the berserker a trap option. If it is a trap option it is because it always was.

Why? Because the berserker is completely unchanged.

I'll concede this point. While the very existence of the zealot has made the berserker even worse in comparison, I agree that it's always been a trap.

In other words, the problem with the approach isn't that it creates trap options. The problem with the approach is that it doesn't clean up existing trap options.

Arguably this is the smaller problem, which together with the non-invalidating of the PHB, is why WotC chose that approach.

I understand the reasons that led WotC to choose this approach. I just don't agree with them, personally. I know there were a lot of people that hated the one hundred pages long errata documents of third and fourth editions. I didn't mind them at all, because they improved the game.

Anyway, I'll commend WotC for at least trying to do something about trap options. It's better than nothing.
(And yeah, the hexblade is an entirely different problem. Why they decided to fix blade locks through a mandatory OP patron is beyond me)

 

[Li Shenron]

In putting together a Session Zero Payer's Guide, I have been hesitant on what to put in the Allowed Sources list. I know of a couple Red Flags (e.g. the Hexblade, and the Zealot). What classes / subclasses would you put on your 'Not Gonna Happen List'?

Honestly, I think it's all BS...

If you are gaming with beginners (in 5e terms), allow the PHB only (for analysis-paralysis prevention), or even just Basic if you want to stay super-safe.

If you are gaming with experts, allow everything official except specific stuff that you've already seen fail you before (and even in that case, remember that it could have been your own fault after all).