D&D 5E Reducing High Magic (6th-9th levels) Spell Slots Option

[TheSword]

It's fixing that (especially what I'm seeing at tier 4) having a handful of high magic slots, instead of just 1 (or 2 perhaps at level 20), is just too powerful IMO. I made a L12 variant of the game which limited casters to a single 6th level spell, so this is a variant of that allowing casters in tier 3 and tier 4 to access spells above 6th level.

So, I like the idea of limiting high magic, but to try to balance it out offering more lower level slots, which can of course be very useful still.

You dont find counterspell, concentration or dispel magic more effective solutions? A single CR 12 Archmage can cancel a PCs 9th level spell using a 3rd level spell on a 35% chance. Or a guaranteed one by using the same slot... same chances for a counterspell.

 

[DND_Reborn]

You dont find counterspell, concentration or dispel magic more effective solutions? A single CR 12 Archmage can cancel a PCs 9th level spell using a 3rd level spell on a 35% chance. Or a guaranteed one by using the same slot... same chances for a counterspell.

No. If they were, I wouldn't be looking for another solution.

That PC can then counter the archmage's counterspell... or another PC does it. With counterspell you don't know what spell is being cast that you want to counter... so it is a big gamble that way, too. Sorry, but counterspell is one of the worst things in 5E IMO.

Concentration is hard ever broken. Because of the mechanic, nearly every caster either Resilient for CON, War Caster, or started in a class with CON saves and MCed into being a caster. Since the base DC is 10 or half damage, unless it is a critical hit, most attacks barely break the DC 10 barrier.

And dispel magic can be effective if it is cast beyond 60 feet (so it can't be countered), but still hardly has a decent chance of working most of the time IME.

 

[TheSword]

No. If they were, I wouldn't be looking for another solution.

That PC can then counter the archmage's counterspell... or another PC does it. With counterspell you don't know what spell is being cast that you want to counter... so it is a big gamble that way, too. Sorry, but counterspell is one of the worst things in 5E IMO.

Concentration is hard ever broken. Because of the mechanic, nearly every caster either Resilient for CON, War Caster, or started in a class with CON saves and MCed into being a caster. Since the base DC is 10 or half damage, unless it is a critical hit, most attacks barely break the DC 10 barrier.

And dispel magic can be effective if it is cast beyond 60 feet (so it can't be countered), but still hardly has a decent chance of working most of the time IME.

You’re game, you can play as you like but I’m seriously surprised you don’t have foes dropping wizards unconscious or stunning them. Damage isn’t the only way to break concentration. Though a CR 13 giants rock is dealing 36 points of damage on average without cries so I don’t believe forcing a DC 20 con check is rare or difficult.

Regarding Counterspell, you’re saying it’s not effective because a PC wizard (or a colleague) has to spend another equal spell slot (or higher if on their own) if they are lucky enough to know counterspell. That seems like a pretty fair trade off.

Are their any particular spells you consider to be the big problems? Most damaging spells can’t consistently match the damage an equal level fighter can deal. So I presume you’re talking about others?

 

[Flamestrike]

It's fixing that (especially what I'm seeing at tier 4) having a handful of high magic slots, instead of just 1 (or 2 perhaps at level 20), is just too powerful IMO.

No, it's not.

 

[Flamestrike]

Concentration is hard ever broken. Because of the mechanic, nearly every caster either Resilient for CON, War Caster, or started in a class with CON saves and MCed into being a caster. Since the base DC is 10 or half damage, unless it is a critical hit, most attacks barely break the DC 10 barrier.

Only if you only ever play in T1-2.

From T3 onwards it's quite common for damaging effects to deal considerable (40+) damage forcing a DC 20 or greater save.

 

[DND_Reborn]

You’re game, you can play as you like but I’m seriously surprised you don’t have foes dropping wizards unconscious or stunning them. Damage isn’t the only way to break concentration. Though a CR 13 giants rock is dealing 36 points of damage on average without cries so I don’t believe forcing a DC 20 con check is rare or difficult.

Regarding Counterspell, you’re saying it’s not effective because a PC wizard (or a colleague) has to spend another equal spell slot (or higher if on their own) if they are lucky enough to know counterspell. That seems like a pretty fair trade off.

Are their any particular spells you consider to be the big problems? Most damaging spells can’t consistently match the damage an equal level fighter can deal. So I presume you’re talking about others?

No, we don't. Because that 36 damage (when they get hit and actually take the damage, mind you...) is a DC 18 check, which with a +8 or better save and advantage has an 80% chance to make the save. Less than half the creatures at that CR would force roughly a DC 15 check, let alone DC 20.

As for counterspell, in our high-level campaign, we have three spellcasters who always have it prepared, so... yeah, enemy spellcasters are rarely an issue in that respect.

 

[DND_Reborn]

No, it's not.

REALLLLY helpful...

Only if you only ever play in T1-2.

From T3 onwards it's quite common for damaging effects to deal considerable (40+) damage forcing a DC 20 or greater save.

Other than dragon breath weapons, not really. First, most (if not all) those effects allow saves for half damage (which are often made as well). So, I stand by what I said, the only times we see DC's that higher are critical hits and failed saves against dragon breaths... yep, that's about it.

This has shown itself to be a problem because we have played through tier 3 and are currently maxing out tier 4.

 

[TheSword]

No, we don't. Because that 36 damage (when they get hit and actually take the damage, mind you...) is a DC 18 check, which with a +8 or better save and advantage has an 80% chance to make the save. Less than half the creatures at that CR would force roughly a DC 15 check, let alone DC 20.

As for counterspell, in our high-level campaign, we have three spellcasters who always have it prepared, so... yeah, enemy spellcasters are rarely an issue in that respect.

It’s only the average of damage that is 36 and therefore a DC 18 check. The spread of damage is 13-57 so my point stands that I don’t think its rare to deal 40 damage without a critical. A critical becomes 17-105 averaging at 57. That’s a single rock. You would expect many giants as a encounter for higher level characters. That giant has +14 to hit, so unless there are some serious AC shenanigans going on it’s going to hit often enough to smart.

If you have three full caster classes in your group, maybe don’t take away their best toys. If a campaign is lucky enough to get to high level they have earnt their high level spells.

 

[LordEntrails]

So what are you going to do to nerf all the other classes so your wizards don't go to the doctor looking for a prescription for a blue pill?

 

[Flamestrike]

REALLLLY helpful...

Well, it's not true (presuming a median of a sixish encounter adventuring day is met).

I understand from our prior discussions you dont bother policing the AD, so that's why you get the results you get.

I'd suggest instead of nerfing casters, you simply pull levers around the resting rules.

In my game, Short rests are 5 minutes long, with a max of 2 per Long rest, and each one no more than 1 hour apart. You can spend up to 1/2 your level in HD (round up) per Short rest.

Long rests are 8 hours long as normal, and you only recover 1 slot of each of levels 1-5, plus 1 slot of levels 6+ (your choice which slot). You recover no HP automatically, and recover 1/2 your level in expended HD (which can be spent automatically to heal).

Other than dragon breath weapons, not really. First, most (if not all) those effects allow saves for half damage (which are often made as well).

Yes, really.

Not just breath weapons, all AOE attacks. Spellcasters, Dragon Breath, hits from Huge+ creatures etc. These are all incredibly common threats from T3 onwards.

Example: Fire themed dungeon for 14th level PCs (Quest: PCs must slay the Fiendish dragon by midnight or else a wave of Abashi are released into the Material plane):

1) Two Fire giants guard the dungeon entrance.
2) Marilith (AC 20, carries a shield, reduce attacks by 1, add poison stinger to tail attack for an extra 6d6 poison damage and poisoned condition, DC 19 Con save for half and no condition. While poisoned in this way, the creature is paralyzed, DC 19 Con save at the end of each turn to remove). Swords have the throwing and returning property (range 30/60) that only function for the Marilith
(short rest)
3) Erinyes and 4 Hell Hounds
4) Archmage and 2 Fire elementals
(short rest)
5) Half Red Dragon Fire giant, and 4 Half red dragon veterans
6) Adult Red Dragon (spell-casting variant). Room is desecrated; creatures in this room lose Fire resistance if they have it.

Most of those creatures can easily force one big (or multiple) Con saves for any caster than is unlucky enough to be targeted by one. And they are not 'unusual' monsters by any stretch at this level.