D&D 5E Reducing High Magic (6th-9th levels) Spell Slots Option

[Rabulias]

Not much highlevel experience here, but try casting sleet storm on these concentrating casters. Note that it's a Con save against the spell save DC, not a DC 10 concentration check, and there's no damage so no advantage from War Caster. And it's every round they are concentrating within the area. Also, since the area is heavily obscured, casters within the area of effect may lose line of sight, if that makes a difference.

 

[Asisreo]

If you're the DM, you're legally allowed to introduce earthquakes and such to disrupt concentration. I would never do this out of the blue but when a wizard is trying to stay aloft in a raging storm, they can expect concentration saves.

 

[dave2008]

I'm thinking about doing something similar in a future campaign. However, i prefer just capping spell progression at 5th level and making high magic as you called it ritual, scroll, or item based only. However, for me it is less about balance and more about the world we have created.

Now, how about a different balance idea. Instead of more spell slots, how about the ability to regain some lost slots on a short rest?

 

[TheSword]

Symbol, Tashas Hideous Laughter, Power Word Stun, Flesh to Stone, Eyebite, Contagion, Banishing Smite and Banishment are all auto breaking concentration on a failed save. Not to mention the aforementioned Ice storm. It is trivially easy to break concentration when magic is on the table.

That shapechanged red dragon was just turned back into a wizard mid flight using a few applications of a first level spell.

What I find odd, is that the OPs party has 3 full casters and then there is a wonder that magic had an powerful impact on the game. What else was expected? If someone has a campaign about high level magic users, of course magic is going to be the main method of solving problems.

Though I still haven’t seen a list of spells that are justifying such a drastic restriction.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Throwing big spells about is what high level D&D is all about. If you don't care for that style of game (I'm not a huge fan) I would consider wrapping up the campaign and starting new characters, or make it entirely about intrigue, politics and kingdom-building.

It's not unique to 5e. I remember in a 1st edition game a 12th level druid single handily destroyed a demon-led army of several thousand with spells, whist the fighter stood around with his jaw hanging open.

 

[DND_Reborn]

You would expect many giants as a encounter for higher level characters.

Maybe you would, but I wouldn't. Even at level 20 a party of 4 PCs against 3 CR 13 creatures would be a "deadly" encounter.

Anyway, that is just difference in game style. So, let's break it down the chance of a tier 4 caster losing concentration against a storm giant's rock...

AC 22 (Robe of Arch Magi AC 15, DEX +3, Bracers +2, Staff of Power +2), 27 with a shield spell.
+14 to attack roll means a 13 or higher, so 40% chance to hit (low by 5E standards which assumes about 65%)
The chance of rolling 40 or higher is only 26.43% for a DC 20 save.
CON save modifier of +11 (+9 base with CON 16 and +2 for staff of power) means a 9 or higher. With advantage from War Caster, and the chance of failing the concentration check is only 16%.

So, for all those events to unfold, you have 0.40 x 0.2643 x 0.16 or 0.0169152 or about 1 in 60 against a DC 20. Of course, the total cumulative chance is higher given any hit (but still only about 5%), but you can still see how the odds favor the caster in this case.

If you have three full caster classes in your group, maybe don’t take away their best toys. If a campaign is lucky enough to get to high level they have earnt their high level spells.

So, they should just walk all over everything because they can throw out a high magic spell in just about each encounter, assuming the typical "adventuring day".

Look, I don't want super-hero games and so I proposed this idea, which I discussed with another member of our group in the past and he agreed. I am all for such character having one "whammy" spell/effect a day, which can help turn the tide of an encounter. I just don't think they need half a dozen.

Obviously you aren't for the idea (which is fine BTW, I know it won't appeal to many), so thanks for your input but can we leave it at that?

 

[Helldritch]

Wow, I am on the opposite side of this thread. Full casters do not have enough spell slots. Be low or high level. Even half casters should have more slots. But lowering further the amount of spell slots? Why on earth would we do that???? High level spells are barely keeping in line with the damage potential of fighters (single target that is). A first in the history of D&D and in a lot of RPG in general.

I am all for a balanced approach but the nerf that full casters got is just a wee bit too much to my taste but still tolerable as they are still good at AoE and utility. But nerfing them further is not a good thing in my opinion.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I understand from our prior discussions you dont bother policing the AD, so that's why you get the results you get.

Because the concept of a standard AD is ridiculous IMO. During travel, you might get one or two encounters per day typically, but a lot of that depends on the region and what the DM sets as the chance. Otherwise, when you get to the meat of an adventure, you can have well over a dozen encounters before the PCs can get a rest in (your typical dungeon crawl or infiltration mission, for instance). Again, this depends entirely on the DM. When I DM, my world exists independent of the PCs, so using a system or formula for the AD never sat well with me.

Long rests are 8 hours long as normal, and you only recover 1 slot of each of levels 1-5, plus 1 slot of levels 6+ (your choice which slot). You recover no HP automatically, and recover 1/2 your level in expended HD (which can be spent automatically to heal).

This isn't a bad idea. I'll have to consider if it would mitigate the issues we're seeing at higher levels. I'll discuss it with members who are meeting today.

Most of those creatures can easily force one big (or multiple) Con saves for any caster than is unlucky enough to be targeted by one. And they are not 'unusual' monsters by any stretch at this level.

See my other post for the odds of failing a DC 20 check.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Now, how about a different balance idea. Instead of more spell slots, how about the ability to regain some lost slots on a short rest?

That could work as well. I just don't want to cap their "overall" potential in case a rest isn't possible.

 

[dave2008]

That could work as well. I just don't want to cap their "overall" potential in case a rest isn't possible.

How about cantrips or at least damage cantrips recharge on a short rest. Makes magic a little less pervasive; maybe not your goal, but I think I might try that.