Reincarnation question

[Greenfield]

I'm pretty sure I know the answer but...

Reincarnate
Transmutation
Level: Drd 4
Components: V, S, M, DF
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Touch
Target: Dead creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
With this spell, you bring back a dead creature in another body, provided that its death occurred no more than one week before the casting of the spell and the subject’s soul is free and willing to return. If the subject’s soul is not willing to return, the spell does not work; therefore, a subject that wants to return receives no saving throw.
Since the dead creature is returning in a new body, all physical ills and afflictions are repaired. The condition of the remains is not a factor. So long as some small portion of the creature’s body still exists, it can be reincarnated, but the portion receiving the spell must have been part of the creature’s body at the time of death. The magic of the spell creates an entirely new young adult body for the soul to inhabit from the natural elements at hand. This process takes 1 hour to complete. When the body is ready, the subject is reincarnated.
A reincarnated creature recalls the majority of its former life and form. It retains any class abilities, feats, or skill ranks it formerly possessed. Its class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points are unchanged. Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body. First eliminate the subject’s racial adjustments (since it is no longer of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to its remaining ability scores. The subject’s level (or Hit Dice) is reduced by 1. If the subject was 1st level, its new Constitution score is reduced by 2. (If this reduction would put its Con at 0 or lower, it can’t be reincarnated). This level/HD loss or Constitution loss cannot be repaired by any means.
It’s possible for the change in the subject’s ability scores to make it difficult for it to pursue its previous character class. If this is the case, the subject is well advised to become a multiclass character.
For a humanoid creature, the new incarnation is determined using the following table. For nonhumanoid creatures, a similar table of creatures of the same type should be created.
A creature that has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can’t be returned to life by this spell.
Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can’t be reincarnated. The spell cannot bring back a creature who has died of old age.
d% Incarnation Str Dex Con
01 Bugbear +4 +2 +2
02–13 Dwarf +0 +0 +2
14–25 Elf +0 +2 –2
26 Gnoll +4 +0 +2
27–38 Gnome –2 +0 +2
39–42 Goblin –2 +2 +0
43–52 Half-elf +0 +0 +0
53–62 Half-orc +2 +0 +0
63–74 Halfling –2 +2 +0
75–89 Human +0 +0 +0
90–93 Kobold –4 +2 –2
94 Lizardfolk +2 +0 +2
95–98 Orc +4 +0 +0
99 Troglodyte +0 –2 +4
100 Other ? ? ?
The reincarnated creature gains all abilities associated with its new form, including forms of movement and speeds, natural armor, natural attacks, extraordinary abilities, and the like, but it doesn’t automatically speak the language of the new form.
A wish or a miracle spell can restore a reincarnated character to his or her original form.
Material Component: Rare oils and unguents worth a total of least 1,000 gp, spread over the remains.

According to the spell, as written in the SRD, a character subjected to Reincarnate loses a level, as is standard for returning from the dead, but doesn't lose hit points, skills, feats, or class abilities, including (presumably) ones acquired with that last level, the one they just lost.

Is there an errata or correction someplace that clears up this apparent contradiction?

Because, on the face of it, a Fighter could reasonably have a BAB that's higher than their total level.

A spell caster could have a caster level that's higher than their class level (caster level is a Class Ability).

I'm pretty sure this is wrong, I'm just looking for the official word that says so.

 

[Sekhmet]

Interesting. Generally, I know that when you lose a level (level drain), you lose all benefits of that level (including feats, spells, caster level, etc).
This may well trump the rule, and even allow some shenaniganery by reincarnating continuously to gain multiple feats, skills, and class abilities that wouldn't necessarily be possible by a certain ECL.
As an example, A Fighter 5 reincarnates into a Fighter 4, gains enough exp to level and levels Wizard. His HP is the same as a Fighter 5, Wizard 1, his BAB is the same as a Fighter 5, retains his feats, but is now a Fighter 4/Wizard 1.
Keep doing it until you're a Wizard 5 with 5 levels of Fighter HP, Feats, and BAB; and you're pretty much boss.

 

[James the Newbie]

Just replace fighter with something from Tome of Battle. If your going down this rout... or just be a druid

 

[Sekhmet]

Who doesn't love bonus feats for casters?

 

[Dandu]

I've always just ignored the first bolded sentence.

 

[Greenfield]

So have most DM's I've known, or more to the point, they've taken it to mean that the reincarnated person is still the same person. They don't have to start over in class, level or skill advancement.

Like I said, I know that it isn't meant to be taken word for word, but like it or not, those are the words. That's why I was asking if there was an errata on this, or a clarification in someplace like the Rules Compendium.

 

[Vegepygmy]

According to the spell, as written in the SRD, a character subjected to Reincarnate loses a level, as is standard for returning from the dead, but doesn't lose hit points, skills, feats, or class abilities, including (presumably) ones acquired with that last level, the one they just lost.

It's not as clear as it could be, but it doesn't say "but."

First, it says you retain any class abilities, feats, skill ranks, etc. So that's your starting point. Then, it says your level is reduced by 1.

Looking at the rules for level loss, you see that when you lose a level, your base attack bonus, base saving throw bonuses, skill ranks, feats, etc. are adjusted accordingly.

So you do, in fact, lose those things when you are reincarnated.

 

[Greenfield]

Okay, so when it says that you don't lose hit dice, skill ranks, feats or class abilities, it really means that you *do* lose all those things.

And you don't see a contradiction in there someplace?

<edit>Isn't it the standard that the specific tops the general? Just asking...</edit>

 

[Dandu]

War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.

 

[Vegepygmy]

Okay, so when it says that you don't lose hit dice, skill ranks, feats or class abilities, it really means that you *do* lose all those things.

No (well, kinda). It's giving you a set of instructions to follow in a particular sequence.

First, it tells you that the spell will create a reincarnated creature (body).

Then, it tells you what a "reincarnated creature" looks like, mechanically; it notes that a reincarnated creature recalls the majority of its former life and form. This is an important clue, because it implies that a minority of its memories are going to be lost. With that in mind, it now walks you through the mechanics of making a "reincarnated creature."

(1) Start with the creature as it was. ("It retains any class abilities, feats, or skill ranks it formerly possessed. Its class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points are unchanged."

(2) Adjust its physical stats to fit the new form. Leave its mental stats alone. ("Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body. First eliminate...")

(3) Wipe that previously implied minority of experience from its brain. ("The subject's level (or Hit Dice) is reduced by 1.")

(4) You now have a "reincarnated creature."

They certainly could have made their instructions clearer, but it seems fairly obvious to me that they did not intend for a reincarnated creature to be an improved version of its previous self. You said it yourself: "I'm pretty sure this is wrong." And you're correct. But you don't need any "official word" to tell you so; you just have to trust your instincts and interpret the text in a sensible way.