Reincarnation question

[Greenfield]

I understand how it's supposed to work. But the way it's written doesn't describe that very well,.

 

[Omegaxicor]

I really do like to understand both sides of an argument then I can help but I don't see what you see...

It says that you keep your abilities, if it didn't then players might expect to be able to reincarnate their Human Fighter 5 as a Elven Wizard 2/Rogue 2/Barbarian 1 which is covered in "Making a PC above 1st level" and remaking your character.

Then theres the customary "you lose a level for dying" text that if it was missing people would assume you DON'T lose a level...

I don't really see the problem?

 

[jasper]

I think greenfield is rules lawyering. If your 7th fight dies. It comes back as 6th black bear fighter. You lose anything you gain at 7th. Losing a level is reason I started making people track how many hit pts they gained per level.
Or Death = (Current level - 1) + critter bonus

 

[Greenfield]

Of course I'm rules-lawyering. I'm sorry if I lead anyone to believe that I was doing anything other than rules-lawyering. I said, right at the start, that I thought this was wrong, and I don't think I've ever argued otherwise.

To be clear, what the rules say and what I think they mean are two different things. That's when rules-lawyering becomes possible.

But while "caster level" isn't really a class ability as such, and so wouldn't necessarily be preserved if the rules were played exactly as written, BAB, hit points, skills and feats *are* specifically mentioned as being preserved.

What I think we can all agree on is that the spell is badly worded. Let's hope they avoid such messes in the reprints.

 

[Omegaxicor]

yes, that's the problem, I haven't read the original text just what is written in your OP but I don't agree that it is written poorly because it seems straight forward to me.

You don't lose anything EXCEPT that 1 level...

 

[Greenfield]

I included a chunk of the original text from the SRD in my first post, but here's the whole thing.

Reincarnate
Transmutation
Level: Drd 4
Components: V, S, M, DF
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Touch
Target: Dead creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
With this spell, you bring back a dead creature in another body, provided that its death occurred no more than one week before the casting of the spell and the subject’s soul is free and willing to return. If the subject’s soul is not willing to return, the spell does not work; therefore, a subject that wants to return receives no saving throw.
Since the dead creature is returning in a new body, all physical ills and afflictions are repaired. The condition of the remains is not a factor. So long as some small portion of the creature’s body still exists, it can be reincarnated, but the portion receiving the spell must have been part of the creature’s body at the time of death. The magic of the spell creates an entirely new young adult body for the soul to inhabit from the natural elements at hand. This process takes 1 hour to complete. When the body is ready, the subject is reincarnated.
A reincarnated creature recalls the majority of its former life and form. It retains any class abilities, feats, or skill ranks it formerly possessed. Its class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points are unchanged. Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body. First eliminate the subject’s racial adjustments (since it is no longer of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to its remaining ability scores. The subject’s level (or Hit Dice) is reduced by 1. If the subject was 1st level, its new Constitution score is reduced by 2. (If this reduction would put its Con at 0 or lower, it can’t be reincarnated). This level/HD loss or Constitution loss cannot be repaired by any means.
It’s possible for the change in the subject’s ability scores to make it difficult for it to pursue its previous character class. If this is the case, the subject is well advised to become a multiclass character.
For a humanoid creature, the new incarnation is determined using the following table. For nonhumanoid creatures, a similar table of creatures of the same type should be created.
A creature that has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can’t be returned to life by this spell.
Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can’t be reincarnated. The spell cannot bring back a creature who has
died of old age.
d% Incarnation Str Dex Con
01 Bugbear +4 +2 +2
02–13 Dwarf +0 +0 +2
14–25 Elf +0 +2 –2
26 Gnoll +4 +0 +2
27–38 Gnome –2 +0 +2
39–42 Goblin –2 +2 +0
43–52 Half-elf +0 +0 +0
53–62 Half-orc +2 +0 +0
63–74 Halfling –2 +2 +0
75–89 Human +0 +0 +0
90–93 Kobold –4 +2 –2
94 Lizardfolk +2 +0 +2
95–98 Orc +4 +0 +0
99 Troglodyte +0 –2 +4
100 Other ? ? ?
The reincarnated creature gains all abilities associated with its new form, including forms of movement and speeds, natural armor, natural attacks, extraordinary abilities, and the like, but it doesn’t automatically speak the language of the new form.
A wish or a miracle spell can restore a reincarnated character to his or her original form.
Material Component: Rare oils and unguents worth a total of least 1,000 gp, spread over the remains.

As you can see from the sections I highlighted, it says that the creature retains hit dice, skills, feats and class abilities.

It also says that it loses a level.

Reading it exactly as written, both of these things can be done, resulting in a lower level person with the higher level person's hit points, BAB, skills and feats.

As I said, I know that that's not what they intended, but it is what they said.

 

[Vegepygmy]

What I think we can all agree on is that the spell is badly worded.

So stipulated.

Let's hope they avoid such messes in the reprints.

Hope is a good thing. Maybe the best of things.

But what many people don't realize is that it's not possible to completely eliminate these kinds of ambiguous/confusing statements from any set of rules as complex as the ones we use to play RPGs. I'm a lawyer in real life, and I can assure you that my profession would barely exist if it were otherwise.

When people complain: "But that's not what it says," they often don't realize that there is more than one way to read the text. "What it says" actually depends, at least to some degree, on who is reading it and what assumptions they're making about the context, meaning of various words, and the writer's intent. It's not as objective an exercise as most people think.

But yeah, they could have written it better. (One almost always can.)

 

[Dandu]

Hope is a good thing. Maybe the best of things.

Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.

 

[Omegaxicor]

[MENTION=6669384]Greenfield[/MENTION] I did say "I haven't read the original text just your original post" but I guess I can't see what you see, I read it as a set of instructions and so I can't see any other way of reading it. I guess as [MENTION=40109]Vegepygmy[/MENTION] said ' "What it says" actually depends what assumptions they're making about the writer's intent ' (snipped for clarity)

[MENTION=85158]Dandu[/MENTION] Was that the Librarian or Chaplain?

 

[Dandu]

Librarian.