D&D 5E Reliable Talent. What the what?

[The Crimson Binome]

To answer your questions as best I can, to make it through those seven traps unscathed under the best possible conditions (which I will assume includes a single rogue with skills built to deal with traps), I'd be comfortable with 95% or higher.

I'm not sure I understand your follow up question as to how I would represent that, but I would be plenty happy to watch a rogue buzz through all those traps with a 95% chance of success.

My point is that you're making seven skill checks, and rolling the d20 seven times. If a rogue doesn't fail on a 1, then the best possible chance for the group to get past those traps unscathed is 100%. If they fail a check on a natural 1, then the best possible chance for the best possible group is slightly worse than 70%.

You go directly from "Yeah, you're fine, don't worry about it," straight to "Don't be surprised if something goes wrong, it's basically a coin flip." There is no way for the mechanics to say "You're probably going to be fine, seriously, but you never know." If you think the best possible chance for a group to get past these traps under optimal circumstances should be 95%, then giving them a 100% chance is closer to that than giving them a 70% chance.

But I will ask you, a hypothetical. Say you're running a solo dungeon for a rogue with his trap skills geared up with Reliable Talent to the point where he automatically succeeds at DC 20 traps, which are the max DC's presented in the dungeon. How would you handle it? Would you adjust the DC's to present more of a challenge? Would you let him just sail through them all? Would you perhaps make time a factor, as others have suggested? Please understand that I'm not being factious in the least. I'm honestly interested to know. When talking about the "thief robbing a whole town" scenario many people suggested interesting potential side plots that could arise to complicate the thief's life. Would you try to do the same in a dungeon setting, and if so, how?

It's been a while since I've run a solo dungeon, and I don't think I've ever run one for a rogue (or thief). I'm also generally opposed to creating dungeons with the intent of challenging specific characters, because it can invalidate their character choices - why would they bother being proficient in thieves' tools, or choosing it as one of their expertise skills, if they knew I was going to take their modifier into account when designing the dungeon? If I did take up the challenge of specifically designing a solo dungeon to challenge a rogue, then I would use a much broader range of DCs for the various traps and locks - again, because I wouldn't want to look at their character sheet beforehand, and because I would want whatever their modifier ended up as to actually matter.

I will go on record as saying that I'm not a fan of dungeon traps, just on general principle. They either strain the laws of physics with their mechanical efficiency, or they add gratuitous magic to a setting that probably already has too much magic in it. I will include some in the obvious sorts of places when I design a dungeon, and I don't mind if I'm the designated trap-monkey when I'm a player, because they are an expected part of the genre.

Traps in fifth edition seem even more pointless than in other editions, since they can't really inflict lasting damage - similar to combat encounters, you'll be fine after a nap - and they aren't even worth XP, so I honestly have no problem with a character just breezing past that aspect of the game. Not everything needs to be a contest, and if someone feels very strongly that they don't want to worry about traps, then I'm happy to oblige them on that. (Likewise, if someone makes a character with a very high AC, I don't feel obligated to challenge them on that; there's more to the game than whatever singular aspect the character has specialized in.)

 

[CapnZapp]

I really feel thats correct, you should never feature a DC higher than 20 without very good reason. (Getting seduced by Graazt is a very good reason)

A much bigger issue that really impacts play is the bewilderingly LOW DCs of many published modules.

A DC of 10 is simply incompatible with the rules for passive checks - even a Commoner with +0 makes a DC 10 check - every time!

For saving against spells or monster attacks it's fine (since these checks are never passive), but when it comes to Perception it makes ZERO sense.

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[5ekyu]

I really feel thats correct, you should never feature a DC higher than 20 without very good reason. (Getting seduced by Graazt is a very good reason)

A much bigger issue that really impacts play is the bewilderingly LOW DCs of many published modules.

A DC of 10 is simply incompatible with the rules for passive checks - even a Commoner with +0 makes a DC 10 check - every time!

For saving against spells or monster attacks it's fine (since these checks are never passive), but when it comes to Perception it makes ZERO sense.

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For me, DC 25 would represent an obstacle that was...

Placed by a proficient individual, who was also ecceptionally talented (ability score) to get to DC20 but who also had an excess of resources (time, money, planning) to enhance and support it).

As referenced somewhere in the books, the one, both, none check for proficiency and attributes giving most DC easy, medium, hard and then making a conscious choice to deviate (most of the time resources) seems to serve me well and consistently.



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[CapnZapp]

For me, DC 25 would represent an obstacle that was...

Placed by a proficient individual, who was also ecceptionally talented (ability score) to get to DC20 but who also had an excess of resources (time, money, planning) to enhance and support it).

As referenced somewhere in the books, the one, both, none check for proficiency and attributes giving most DC easy, medium, hard and then making a conscious choice to deviate (most of the time resources) seems to serve me well and consistently.



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I'm talking official published adventure supplements.

Actually I would be interested in a top 5 list for each module, especially the level 1-15 ones.

I don't think there's a single DC 25 check in Out of the Abyss, for instance. And any DC 21-24 checks come from monsters (Demon Princes) and are mostly saves, not checks.

Now, this module is probably the one written by a team least proficient in high level design, so how about Princes of the Apocalypse, for example?

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[CapnZapp]

Cont'd:

I know the DMG contains Difficulty Classes all the way from 5 to 30, but I would argue that 10, 15 and 20 are the only ones you'll ever need.

And not coincidentally those are the only ones that you'll ever see in an official capacity.

(Never say ever, of course. I mean it in a relative, not absolute, sense)

My greater point, of course, is that, no, you don't have it wrong if your math tells you Reliable Talent makes you make every check there is (in practical play).

And, obviously, the class feature must have been designed with this in mind.

In other, even more clear words, I believe it would indeed be a mistake to suddenly start adding a load of DC 25 and DC 30 checks to your game just to give your Rogue something to roll against.

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[Syntallah]

snip

As referenced somewhere in the books, the one, both, none check for proficiency and attributes giving most DC easy, medium, hard and then making a conscious choice to deviate (most of the time resources) seems to serve me well and consistently.

Can you extrapolate on that? I am not familiar with this element.

 

[5ekyu]

Can you extrapolate on that? I am not familiar with this element.

Sure.
Easy DC 10 represents a task passable by OR setup by someone of average ability score AND no training or proficiency

Mediim DC 15... Someone with EITHER training (prof) or Exceptional (high) ability.

Hard DC 20... Someone with both.

When in doubt about a DC imagine who you would think can handle it OR more often who set it up and then how much did they invest into it.

Shift DC up by 5 for "they sunk a lot more than normal into it) considering time, money, manpower, materials etc. Thats how you can get to DC 25.

Shift down by 5 for the reverse... Cheapskate bought bargain locks or just put up latches. Slackarf does not keep his stuff up. That kind of thing.

Also of course can add or subtract 5 for any identifiable special unique circumstances.

So advantage here is consistency and texture. For each DC you have identifiable elements, describable elements etc that you can use to show the players the DC they expect.

Locksmith shop locks better than innkeepers... Make sense.

Doddering old sage whose place shows sign of neglect, describe that and possibly "this lock was first rate in its time but now its in need of repair and a simple matter of..."

Smith noted in town as paranoid... Harder DC due to a lot of little things, constant maint and adjust etc.





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[schnee]

Let's get away from the thief robbing an entire town scenario and talk about traps for a minute.

I just looked over ... Tomb of Horrors, a dungeon known for it's fiendish traps. Just a cursory glance shows DC 20's across the board. In AtG there's a treasure room full of traps, so when they find that room, do I just say, "You find and disable all of the traps. No roll required!" and tell them what they've won? Does the rogue just waltz through ToH without a single chance of failure? That can't be right.

It didn't really keep the spirit of the original, because the original was 'talk through it in the way the book says here or die'.

It's great for a high-stakes, timed tournament adventure, and terrible for characters that players are invested in.

So IMO it's not the same.

 

[Syntallah]

Sure.
Easy DC 10 represents a task passable by OR setup by someone of average ability score AND no training or proficiency

Mediim DC 15... Someone with EITHER training (prof) or Exceptional (high) ability.

Hard DC 20... Someone with both.

When in doubt about a DC imagine who you would think can handle it OR more often who set it up and then how much did they invest into it.

Shift DC up by 5 for "they sunk a lot more than normal into it) considering time, money, manpower, materials etc. Thats how you can get to DC 25.

Shift down by 5 for the reverse... Cheapskate bought bargain locks or just put up latches. Slackarf does not keep his stuff up. That kind of thing.

Also of course can add or subtract 5 for any identifiable special unique circumstances.

So advantage here is consistency and texture. For each DC you have identifiable elements, describable elements etc that you can use to show the players the DC they expect.

Locksmith shop locks better than innkeepers... Make sense.

Doddering old sage whose place shows sign of neglect, describe that and possibly "this lock was first rate in its time but now its in need of repair and a simple matter of..."

Smith noted in town as paranoid... Harder DC due to a lot of little things, constant maint and adjust etc.





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Thanks for the clarification..!

 

[CapnZapp]

I prefer a simpler approach.

If it's mundane (something anyknow could know or do): DC 10. This still means a character without proficiency or ability could fail 40-60% of the time.

If it's "difficult" (or "advanced", or "special") but still essentially grounded in everyday life: DC 15.

If it's "impossible" (a heroic feat to pull off): DC 20

Simple as that.

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As for the whole simulationist approach, where you translate probabilities into expected number of retries... don't. The game simply isn't geared towards handling a Commoner trying a DC 20 check and succeeding every twentieth attempt (or twenty Commoners trying and one of them succeeding).

The ONLY use case supported is the dramatic moment when a hero steps up and makes an attempt.

And the focus is on allowing every hero to have a chance at most tasks, because it is fun to have a chance of success and it is boring to not having a chance of success.

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To me, it's a much bigger headache to work around the passive checks of the game.

Simply put, a passive check should never ever be DC 10, since that means everyone not actually gimped (ability penalty, no proficiency) will always succeed.

As a rough recommendation, keep passive checks to between 13-17.

Again, the ONLY reason to have or use the Passive checks rule is to quickly separate the party in two groups: those who make it and those who don't.

Anytime everyone or noone makes a test where nobody rolled any dice (i.e. a passive check) is somewhat of a failure, unless the party is decidedly lopsided (such as: nobody with Insight, or everyone has a top-notch Perception etc)