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Response to recent article by James Wyatt on DMG

SDOgre

First Post
The fact that half the players at your table were packing around a copy of the DMG already spoiled that anyway. Maybe if you were keeping your players tied up in your basement between sessions and only allowed them a 3.x PHB it would work ;) The DMG had the first prestige classes, it was perfectly valid to be looking thru.

I think I've come to understand a fundamental difference between myself and others that have posted to this thread.

My players never had DMGs. We established it early on that only the DM needed a DMG and MM. Since there was only one other DM that I played with (all through 3E) then this wasn't difficult.

The players never wanted to ruin the surprise, mystery, and excitement by knowing what magic items did and what monsters could do.

I think what I'm coming to understand is that most people who have posted to this thread play in groups where half or more of the players have access to the DM's books.

That's too bad. I think you would have found the game more enjoyable with a lot more "Ah, ha!" moments if the only the DM got the DM books.
 

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FadedC

First Post
I think I've come to understand a fundamental difference between myself and others that have posted to this thread.

My players never had DMGs. We established it early on that only the DM needed a DMG and MM. Since there was only one other DM that I played with (all through 3E) then this wasn't difficult.

The players never wanted to ruin the surprise, mystery, and excitement by knowing what magic items did and what monsters could do.

I think what I'm coming to understand is that most people who have posted to this thread play in groups where half or more of the players have access to the DM's books.

That's too bad. I think you would have found the game more enjoyable with a lot more "Ah, ha!" moments if the only the DM got the DM books.

Unfortunately what you describe is pretty much not possible in a 3e game run by the standard rules. Spellcasters need access to the monster manual to look up the stats of the creatures they summon or turn into. Meanwhile anyone who took a magic item creation feat needed to to be able to look up the items he was able to consider making. And even players without that feat often needed to look up the magic items they had found to figure out what exactly they did. Then there was the fact that prestige classes were in the DMG and not the PHB, and players generally needed to know about them because they required you to plan your character from level 1 to qualify. And of course there were spells in the PHB that required you to look up things in the DMG to know that they did (such gust of wind).

So while the method you describe might have been fun and a perfectly good way of doing things, you certainly were not remotely using the default rules for 3rd edition. As a result it should be no surprise that you might not feel inclined to use the default rules for 4th edition either. The good news though is that unlike 3e, 4e is actually designed to be played without your players having access to the DMG or the Monster Manual.
 

SDOgre

First Post
Unfortunately what you describe is pretty much not possible in a 3e game run by the standard rules. Spellcasters need access to the monster manual to look up the stats of the creatures they summon or turn into.

I gave the stats to them. Using standard rules...

Meanwhile anyone who took a magic item creation feat needed to to be able to look up the items he was able to consider making.

I did limit this by making a prereq feat to create permanent magic items. I never liked the idea of characters making magic items. I'm old school 1E when it comes to that.

And even players without that feat often needed to look up the magic items they had found to figure out what exactly they did.

Huh? Why would you let them look the item up? Wouldn't you describe it to them? How hard is that?

Then there was the fact that prestige classes were in the DMG and not the PHB, and players generally needed to know about them because they required you to plan your character from level 1 to qualify.

Those prestige classes mostly sucked. I let them look at them. They didn't like them and we didn't use them.

And of course there were spells in the PHB that required you to look up things in the DMG to know that they did (such gust of wind).

Um, again, what's so hard about just telling them?

So while the method you describe might have been fun and a perfectly good way of doing things, you certainly were not remotely using the default rules for 3rd edition.

The only thing I did different was limit magic item creation. How remote is that?
 

Dormain1

Explorer
Unfortunately what you describe is pretty much not possible in a 3e game run by the standard rules. Spellcasters need access to the monster manual to look up the stats of the creatures they summon or turn into. Meanwhile anyone who took a magic item creation feat needed to to be able to look up the items he was able to consider making. And even players without that feat often needed to look up the magic items they had found to figure out what exactly they did. Then there was the fact that prestige classes were in the DMG and not the PHB, and players generally needed to know about them because they required you to plan your character from level 1 to qualify. And of course there were spells in the PHB that required you to look up things in the DMG to know that they did (such gust of wind).

So while the method you describe might have been fun and a perfectly good way of doing things, you certainly were not remotely using the default rules for 3rd edition. As a result it should be no surprise that you might not feel inclined to use the default rules for 4th edition either. The good news though is that unlike 3e, 4e is actually designed to be played without your players having access to the DMG or the Monster Manual.

A player never needs to look at a DMG even in 3.x, if he wants to summon a monster it is rather easy to print off a sheet with relevant stats, if he wants to craft an item he asks the DM who tells him if it is balanced or not, PrC should be described from the beginning of a campaign or introduced with the players in mind. What about if someone wants to create a new item not in the DMG does that mean he can't of course not

The DM is there to help you enjoy the game and not prevent you from having fun, sure a player may look at the DMG to speed things along but does he just create things without talking to the DM first I would hope not

a good DM is one you don't need to keep secrets from
 

FadedC

First Post
Well first off how did you give your players the stats on the summoned monsters or things like the effects of spells that are only described in the DMG? These things are way too complicated to be simply descibed. Did you actually print out the 20+ pages of monster stats that would be necesary for even a lower level caster to have access to all of his summons?

Secondly it sounds like you did give your players access to the DMG afterall to look at prestige classes. You were just fortunate in that none of them wanted to play any of them. Many of us had different experiences.

As for magic items, well you did learn exactly what they did with an identify spell, so there is no reason not to let them look them up. Again unless all your magic items are simple +1 swords, they probably aren't going to always remember exactly what they do. Though I guess you could solve this problem by printing out several pages of the DMG for them to look through, or just typing out the text of the items.
 

Stalker0

Legend
In general, I think there is only one class of magic item in 4e that could be unbalancing.

Skill Bonus Items.

4e has gone to great pains to "fix the math", so that everyone stays competitive, even in skills. Skill Items can break that. A +6 bonus to athletics suddenly explodes the gap between the bad and good athletic users.
 

FadedC

First Post
A player never needs to look at a DMG even in 3.x, if he wants to summon a monster it is rather easy to print off a sheet with relevant stats,

A 5th level wizard has 42 different monsters he can summon. That's a lot of sheets for the DM to print off for him. And if you have a druid in the party he has a whole different large selection.


if he wants to craft an item he asks the DM who tells him if it is balanced or not,

That's a perfectly good rule, but it's not the official rule. The official rule is that you can craft items in the DMG that you meet the requirements for.

PrC should be described from the beginning of a campaign

So every campaign should start off by describing the 200+ prestige classes available in different books?
 

firesnakearies

Explorer
For the upcoming game that I’m planning to run, using a custom world and campaign that I’m working on now, I plan to dramatically alter the way that magic items enter the game, yet retain the same balance and choice for the players which exist in the core rules.

The game is set in a post-apocalyptic dark fantasy world (based largely on a mishmash of ideas from Earthdawn, Dark Sun, Planescape, and the Outlands from WoW), where the planet was nearly destroyed, all of the major civilizations were crushed, and the sapient races were driven back into a very long, totally barbaric dark age, forced into hiding for hundreds of years to avoid the many dangers which threatened to eliminate all life in the world.

As such, the world is not full of adventurers, spellcasters, and such. There are none, really, with the exception of a very few rare and special NPCs and villains, and the vast majority of the world’s people know nothing of their existence. Magic has been forgotten. Even the divine magic of the gods has not been wielded in centuries.

But now, the PCs have been randomly chosen to fulfill a fated destiny which was set in place by the gods before the Fall, and have discovered the ancient secrets of magic, heroism, ritual and battle. A large part of their ongoing quest will involve delving into the hidden, buried places of power that have not been breached in a thousand years, and in these places they will have adventures and find treasure, as per the 4E guidelines.

But there’s no one for them to sell to, or buy from. Not magic items, not ritual supplies. Residuum would be entirely unheard of. No one HAS the kind of wealth needed to deal in magical items, anyway, in this broken world. So here’s what I’m going to do.

First of all, I’m not putting any normal magic items into the game at all. They won’t be in the treasure, and the enemies won’t have them or use them. The players WILL learn, at the beginning of the campaign, how to use ritual magic for many purposes, including creating whatever standard magic items they wish. Simple rituals (non-item creating, lower level, etc.) will only require materials which can be purchased by the players. But in order to begin to enchant their own items of magic, which haven’t been seen since ages forgotten, they’ll need the kind of old components of power which are no longer available in the world.

So what I’m going to do is put out a lot of ritual scrolls and ritual books and especially ritual components as part of the “monetary treasure” allotted in the DMG. They won’t have much need for vast supplies of coin, anyway, as most of the things they’ll want and need won’t be for sale anywhere. Then they can use all of these supplies to make themselves whatever they want. So they all get custom, ideal items, with no messing around trying to sell junky magic items they don’t want, or having to wear that disgusting, ratty old robe that the lich was wearing, just because it’s a powerful item.

In addition, I’ll be sprinkling the various ancient ruins, temples, and caves with a variety of old items of magic, which don’t do anything except perhaps glow, but hold some magical power still. Essentially, art objects and gems, but they can be disenchanted into residuum.

But what about the players getting the items ABOVE their level, that they’re supposed to have, and can’t make with the ritual? Well, here’s my clever idea about that. For each regular magic item that is supposed to be parceled out in an adventure, I’ll be putting in a potent relic of the ancient cultures. These relics will be easily recognizable to the players, will not do anything, but will be able to be used to “power” a special item creation ritual, at NO component cost, AND allowing the making of an item above the caster’s level. Each relic will have its own level, just like a magic item, and can be used to make an item ritually of that same level or lower, regardless of the level of the player doing the ritual.

So, if it tells me to put in one 14th level item, one 13th level item, one 12th level item, and one 11th level item, I’ll just seed that block of encounters with these special relics of the same levels of potency. That way, the players can also make their own “real treasure” items, too. So the upshot is, all of the flavor and lore consistency of the world I want to run is retained, but the PCs end up having the same amount and power of magic items as the core rules. Plus they get to have just what they want, and feel really cool about being the only people in the world who can make these items, and that they’re discovering this lost art themselves. Even a lousy +1 longsword will seem pretty awesome when it's the most powerful weapon in the world, as far as anyone knows.

However, since finding something cool and unknown is important, too, I will be including a very few completely custom, detailed magic items which they can uncover as treasure (and will take the place of an appropriate amount of other treasure). Each of these will be hand-designed by me, with a history, a name, special properties unlike any of the standard items, and a neat picture. The items will be designed to be useful at all levels, and each one will be specifically tailored for one individual PC. These will be the really awesome treasures, the beloved items that they players will always cherish. These items will have personal value to their owners, they won’t want to sell or disenchant them, and they won’t become obsolete. I figure that I’ll spread them out so that each player gets one every few levels, and they all have about 4 or 5 of them each by level 30.

I think that this system will work perfectly for my campaign, and will make the players happy, keep the game balanced as intended, while circumventing many of the normal snags involved in the whole random-magic-items-as-loot metagame of selling and buying gear.

Any thoughts?
 

Not even the Head of Vecna?

Somehow I could see myself playing a character who collects +1 swords.

See, the thing is, magic sword +1 doesn't exist in any treasure parcel (the minimum is level 2 item) so you'll never see one adventuring, and crafting magic items is a higher level ritual, so there's no reason to make a magic sword +1....

...making them a rare and valuable collectors item!
LOL! Awesome!
 

Magic items are almost always useful to the players. The reason players would sell them and buy other things is because the GP value of items wasn't perfectly balanced in effectiveness so there were usually MORE useful things worth the same amount.
Many NPCs are equipped with items that are plain useless to the PCs. You don't need 4 +1 Swords at level 10. You don't even need a Unholy Greataxe +2 at level 10, even if it has a higher effective + then your current weapon. You don't need a Ring of Protection +2 if everyone in the party already got a Ring of Protection +3, except the cleric, who always casts Shield of Faith.

A secondary problem: Unfortunately, you also don't need an Apparatus of Kwalish or a Ring of Elemental Control if you could sell it to pay for a +X weapon, armor, shield, ring of protection, amulet of natural armor, belt of strength, glove of dexterity, amulet of health, periapt of wisdom, headband of intellect, cloak of charisma or cloak of resistance that you didn't have yet.

If you play in some ridiculous Monty Hall campaign where players could sell items for anything close to full market price and have every item in existence available to buy at whim then OF COURSE they'll sell useful magic items in order to get the min-maxed priced item.

We always sold items at half market price, minus the identification cost (unless a player had Analyze Dweomer).

We had one "Monty Hall" campaign out of approximately 9-10 campaigns running over the past 8 years. (Monty Hall at least in the way I understand the word, where we would - as a high level party - even steal the Admantite Doors in a Dragon lair. Though we spend a lot of the excess money on building a castle and equipping Followers. )
 

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