Retailer's Stance on PDF Deals

[crazy_cat]

What I don't want is the gamestores that assume they deserves my money just because they're gamestores.

This.

I don't buy that much new gaming stuff anymore (since WOTC fired me a customer ) - and all the Paizo stuff I do buy is on subscription direct with Paizo, with free PDF copy thrown in.

But, I like having a FLGS to browse from time to time and they offer very good service (all the gaming space they offer is of no interest for our group as we RPG in our houses, but it's a nice feature for some I'm sure) so I make a point of buying books from them when possible to help support their business. I pay a premium on these books compared to Amazon prices, but I'm prepared to as it helps support a good FLGS.

They have earned my support, they are not entitled to it just because they sell gaming stuff.

 

[JoeGKushner]

How's business at Games Plus Mt. Prospect?

I never had a problem spending a little more there, even when I could get it cheaper online, and even when PDFs were available.

They must have a mind control ray.

Here's one thing I noticed. And I'm not saying it's a negative or a positive. Just an observation.

They're discounting stuff that's not much MUCH quicker than they used to. Back in 'the day', they would horde and keep the older material for decades. Some of it is still there. Now? When FFG cleared out their Rackham plastics, Games Plus put theirs on clearance. FFG does the same with Mutant Chronicles, that game is now on the discount shelf. RAFM and Iron Wind Metals? Discount shelf. Good buys in many of those cases and some evidence that Games Plus is trying to be 'leaner'.

 

[Nymrohd]

To be honest I don't expect an FLGS to do well unless it offers secondary services. It's been said time and again but offering a place to game, secure WiFi access, heck even running a snack bar would help them out a lot. Their product is just not competitive when I can buy it from amazon and still pay less even with delivery costs included. And I'd expect they would be at an even greater loss if WotC started selling products at normal PDF prices (their prices for new products at least were pretty high).

But I do understand the retailers. 3PP offering great discounts on their products at this point make sense. They can make a profit from the current publicity of the pdf medium, they can take part of WotC market share, and they can better support pdf retailers which certainly may need help with WotC's withdrawal. But they certainly did not take into account BnM shops and the increasing damage to them if the game keeps promoting ebooks and electronic databases. It may well make business sense to the publishers if they sell more on the net than on print or at least than through BnM shops.

I think it goes back to the discussion of whether BnM shops are still intergral to the industry and one of the better mediums to advertise and support the hobby. As I said earlier, I think that with a few modifications to their mission statements they can affirm that position in the future. But a stale format of essentially a book shop with a couple of dusty tables for wargamers and maybe D&D players probably does not cut it.

 

[Anarchclown]

Personally I sometimes buy the PDF to see if it's worth buying the real product. I generally never prefer PDFs over real products though.

 

[Emberion]

I am a publisher of exclusively pdf material. Eventually, however, I would like to put out at least one "dead tree" style book. As much as many may be extolling the virtues of pdf format, it is still not the preferred way to get rpg material.

Here is my take on it:
1. All of my 4th edition books are in paper format, and I do not own any pdf versions of them. I find pdf versions of these books only useful if:
a. they are are extremely cheap or free (I can't justify paying again for
the same material that I can just scan in...basically I am paying for
convenience at that point)
b. I can copy and paste from them so I can give out the material to
players as handouts during the game. Great for charts and pictures.

2. I only buy the pdf version over the print version if it is much cheaper than the paper version AND I do not feel the material is really worth the money. This is usually very rare, and has less to do with quality than it does content. For example, if there are only a few pages in the document that I am interested in, then I am more likely to buy the pdf version. And yes, I will occasionally determine this while browsing in a store.

3. Occasionally, I will buy the pdf version as described in #2, and actually grow fond of the material, and end up buying the print version anyway.

Most people that I know feel the same. PDFs are generally a hassle, not nearly as easy to browse, and not great for the gaming table.

 

[funkytable]

A new gamers opinion

I think my opinion on this subject is noteworthy for one huge reason:

I am a new Tabletop Gamer. So new, I've only played for 3 months total.

My brother and I bought a game called Descent Journeys in the Dark for Christmas because I remembered how much I enjoyed HeroQuest as a kid (The only thing I had ever played that comes close to DND prior to Descent). Once I went back to home far away from my brother, I decided I wanted to continue that style of gameplay, so I turned online.

As I researched for games that could be played online that were similar to Descent, the most famous of all RPG's of course caught my eye. I researched DND and found it to not only be like Descent, but more fun because Character personality is involved. I enjoy creative writing, so this looked even more appealing.

But I still needed to play online, I couldn't do a DND group that meets once a week. Plus that sounded more like Improv theater than my interest in Creative Writing. So then I found a Play by Post site that hosted DND games. I was hooked.

Then I needed to decide how to purchase the materials for DND. My wife gets extremely annoyed whenever I purchase anything not on the basis of money, but on the basis of space. She doesn't like a lot of books on the bookshelf, and she certainly would hate it if I started buying miniatures (She bitterly tolerated Descent). So I researched if there were some sort of Digital Distribution for DND materials. There was the DNDinsider, but I wary of monthly subscriptions. That lead me to RPGnow and their PDF store, and I was thrilled. I started purchasing one book a month.


And yes, I went into my local stores, both chains and a game shop, and flipped through the books available to me before I bought them online. I did this twice. I didn't read the entire things like retailers get upset about with comics. I just flipped through them.

I logged in today to purchase a copy of the Monster Manual (The PHB's were more important to me out of the gate) and I learned the terrible news that they no longer sell WotC products.

So here's my response. I will NEVER purchase any DND products that are not Digital. I will NEVER pay a monthly subscription for a service that I do not get to keep once the monthly subscription is over. So that pretty much leaves PDF's as the only option for me to enjoy RPG gaming. I find it confusing that right after WotC wins a new customer, they point me to the exit. They were going to get some of my money today, but now they won't.

Again, let me stress the number 1 reason for this. My wife will not let me purchase the hard copies of WotC products. Both she and I get frustrated with too much clutter, and we don't need a new hobby taking up space in our house. However, space on a hard drive is totally fine.

So yes it sucks that some Retail stores may be getting hit bad by Amazon or PDF sales. But unfortunately, that's the way the business world turns. I doubt Obama will promote a stimulus bill to save geeky hobby shops, so it looks like the retailers are on their own to figure out how to stay in business or opt to sell now before it gets really bad. I wish you guys the best, but at the same time if WotC wants my money, they have to release their product digitally. The idea of forcing a dying business model (print media) for the sake of locally owned businesses is heartwarming but ultimately fatal.

 

[darjr]

That's no less acrimonious and dramatic.

yea I agree.

 

[Ghostwind]

I am hoping the release of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook in August takes things even a step further, because more than 50,000 individual gamers have downloaded the Beta, and a LOT of them are going to be buying the game in brick and mortar stores.

(If the brick and mortar stores order it, that is. Some of them still proudly post on retailer forums that they thought Paizo went out of business when the magazines were canceled.)

--Erik Mona
Publisher
Paizo Publishing, LLC

This is assuming that retail stores are willing to order the book since it's not 4th edition. Right now getting any store to stock an item that is for 3.5 is almost impossible.

 

[CaptainChaos]

This is assuming that retail stores are willing to order the book since it's not 4th edition. Right now getting any store to stock an item that is for 3.5 is almost impossible.

But Paizo isn't trying to sell them just another 3.5 book, but the Pathfinder RPG. Seems like the point is that Paizo is trying to set a new standard.

 

[Hstio]

I hate to say it, but I'm from the older segment of the community (late 1970's crowd) that now has the income to purchase books full price, but has lost the luxury of having a lot of time. I'm not a big fan of pdfs as I prefer hard copy and hate spending even more time at a computer screen after a full day at work. I get pdf's when they are the only thing available (pdf only companies or the book is so rare I can't justify the cost of the hard copy) or if I'm not sure about the setting/game line and I want to try it out. The free version of Exalted 2nd edition and the insanely cheap hard copy Savage World rules, are good marketing and aare hopefully a way to draw in more customers/players. With the current sale on dfs, I got off the fence and purchased Reality Deviant Publishers Blood Throne and Reign of Discordia for True 20, books I probably won't be able to use as is but books I would like to read.

Normally, if I like what I see in pdf, I try to track down in hard copy. I really, really, don't want to read a 300-400 page document on pdf. I'd prefer to have the dead tree version for reading and study and the pdf for quick reference and the amazingly handy search capability.

Hstio