D&D 5E Rethinking Ability Scores

ro

First Post
Did you play much 3.X? They’re basically Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves, but expressed as defenses. So a spell like fireball that you have to dodge targets RC. A spell like Charm Person that affects your mind targets WC. A spell like toxic cloud that you have to overcome with sheer physical resilience targets FC.

Interesting. No, I haven't played 3.X either. 5e is my only D&D experience.
I feel like it would be better if physical AC were separated from Dex and Str, or used both Dex and Str.

Very off point, but now I'm imagining a game where Wisdom gives its own hit point pool: to defeat an enemy, you have to destroy both their physical Con HP and their metaphysical Wis HP.
 

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5ekyu

Hero
In my experience the best house rules are simple, easy to learn, and easy to implement.

This is complex, difficult to learn, and as it requires an overhaul of the system it is difficult to implement.

Character creation is much more difficult to learn and understand under this system. Previously all a person needed to learn was which abilities are good for their character. Now they need an excel spreadsheet to learn how the different ability scores interact with their class abilities.

Here is an example of a much simpler way of rebalancing ability scores:

1) Initiative is now a special ability check (like death saving throw) that is not tied to an ability score.
2) Some Wisdom saving throws are now Int or Cha as thematically appropriate (eg. Charm abilities are Cha saving throws)
3) To achieve a better balance overall of classes who favour the different abilities make Warlock an Int caster rather than Cha.
I tend to agree...changing the basic six attributes significantly, even if it did make them easier, crashes a lot of things in a system with so many other elements such as class definition mixed in.

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You spells gain extra damage dice according to your Spell Damage Modifier. This modifier is your Charisma modifier up to half your highest spell slot plus your proficiency bonus:

Spell Damage Modifier = Prof. + Cha (max spell level/2)

The number of damage dice you roll for a spell equals the spell level plus your spell damage modifier.

Spell damage = (Level + Cha (max Level/2) + Prof) * dX
I'm still having some trouble with parsing this. If we let the Spell Damage Modifier become a variably Y, and let X refer to the size of the die (from the provided list), then total spell damage for any spell is just equal to (Y + spell level)dX?

If I'm following this correctly, your spell damage for burning hands will increase significantly with level, since it scales with both Proficiency and max spell level. At level 11, you're getting 7 dice of damage out of a level 1 spell slot. With so much of the damage coming out of the Y term, there's relatively little benefit to up-ranking, although this does solve the problem where fireball III would deal more damage than burning hands III. I also assume that your max spell level refers to spell slots, rather than spells known, to avoid penalizing multi-class spellcasters.

One suggestion is to remove the level-based cap on Charisma contributions, just because it's too complex for this edition. Honestly, I would strongly recommend that you rework the formula so that Charisma adds a static bonus rather than influencing the dice, unless you plan on making similar changes to weapon attacks. As it stands, powerful greatweapon fighters are encouraged to maximize their Dex/Accuracy rather than Strength/Power, because the attack roll is much more important than the damage roll when you're already rolling large damage dice.

I would also recommend reducing the die-size penalty for half-damage, since half of a d4 is a trivial amount of damage in any situation. Just take "half damage on a save" to be a special effect, like imposing a condition, so it only decreases the die-size by one step.
 
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Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Interesting. No, I haven't played 3.X either. 5e is my only D&D experience.
I feel like it would be better if physical AC were separated from Dex and Str, or used both Dex and Str.

Very off point, but now I'm imagining a game where Wisdom gives its own hit point pool: to defeat an enemy, you have to destroy both their physical Con HP and their metaphysical Wis HP.
In other words, body or wound points (meat) and fatigue or vitality points (metaphysical). This one's come up before in all sorts of guises, and it has merit.

The one thing that often trips it up, however, is poison weapons. Even metaphysical h.p. would have to have a partially-real component in order for a poisoned weapon to work as intended by getting the poison into the foe via a scratch (i.e. real actual physical damage, albeit minor).

Now if you're thinking of something really different, where say your metaphysical h.p. can only be affected by metaphysical things e.g. mental spells etc. then you're into new and possibly rather messy ground. :)

Lanefan
 

ro

First Post
I'm still having some trouble with parsing this. If we let the Spell Damage Modifier become a variably Y, and let X refer to the size of the die (from the provided list), then total spell damage for any spell is just equal to (Y + spell level)dX?

Yes, this is the idea, but you make some good points toward needing to refine it.

If I'm following this correctly, your spell damage for burning hands will increase significantly with level, since it scales with both Proficiency and max spell level. At level 11, you're getting 7 dice of damage out of a level 1 spell slot. With so much of the damage coming out of the Y term, there's relatively little benefit to up-ranking, although this does solve the problem where fireball III would deal more damage than burning hands III.

You make a good point about getting too much out of a 1st-level slot, and pointing out the proficiency scaling. Let's presume that it is ok to say that a caster gets better even at 1st-level spells later in the game, and keep proficiency. But let's also clarify the Cha cap to make upcasting important. However, doing so eliminates the Spell Damage Modifier, which is more complicated. I prefer a one-time calculation, however. But even with this scaling of a given level's slots, they remain inferior to higher level slots.

But should an upcast spell be as good as a native spell? Probably not. Otherwise you would just take one spell at 1st level and be done with it.
When you cast a spell of 1st level or higher, you roll one damage die (dX) per level of the spell. You also gain additional damage dice equal to your proficiency bonus, and you gain dice equal to your Charisma modifier, up to a maximum of half the spell's base level.

Number of Dice = Spell Level + Proficiency Bonus + Charisma modifier (max Base Spell Level/2)

Damage = Number of Dice * dX​

I also assume that your max spell level refers to spell slots, rather than spells known, to avoid penalizing multi-class spellcasters.

Yes.

One suggestion is to remove the level-based cap on Charisma contributions, just because it's too complex for this edition. Honestly, I would strongly recommend that you rework the formula so that Charisma adds a static bonus rather than influencing the dice, unless you plan on making similar changes to weapon attacks. As it stands, powerful greatweapon fighters are encouraged to maximize their Dex/Accuracy rather than Strength/Power, because the attack roll is much more important than the damage roll when you're already rolling large damage dice.

The problem with static bonuses is that they are quickly dwarfed by more/bigger damage dice, making the stat unimportant. You rightly point out that this is a problem with weapon fighters as it stands. In general, weapon fighters get more benefit from extra attack, which includes re-adding the stat bonus, whereas casters roll more dice for a single attack and would add the bonus only once, making it much less relevant. I'll have to think about this more on how to balance it.

I would also recommend reducing the die-size penalty for half-damage, since half of a d4 is a trivial amount of damage in any situation. Just take "half damage on a save" to be a special effect, like imposing a condition, so it only decreases the die-size by one step.

Dropping only a single die size makes the average damage of save-for-half spells much higher than the others. Dropping two die sizes makes them comparable. Half of a d4 is negligible, but when there are many d4s, it makes a difference.

Balancing Spell Damage

The easiest way to balance spell damage is to roll dice equal to twice the spell's level. This gives a nice, even approach. However, it does not leave room for Cha impact, and it also makes all upcasting equivalent to higher spells, making taking more than one spell pointless.

Another way:

Spell dice = Spell level + 2*Cha (max base spell level).

This takes out proficiency, making it a little bit easier, and it prevents scaling, and Charisma is important.
 
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But should an upcast spell be as good as a native spell? Probably not. Otherwise you would just take one spell at 1st level and be done with it.
Even if Burning Hands III did the same damage as Fireball III, it still wouldn't be as good, because it has a much smaller area of effect that is much harder to position. By letting them deal the same damage in the same spell slot, you make it so that damaging spells scale linearly with spell level (by shape of effect) rather than quadratically (with both shape and power). Otherwise, upranking a low-level damage spell seems like a trap option, or a desperation move, rather than anything that someone would seriously choose.

It's kind of like if you're making a sci-fi game with guns, and you need to have both pistols and rocket launchers. You need to have some reason why someone would pick a pistol, or else it feels like a trap. If I invest an equal amount of resources into something, then I should expect an equal payoff.

Older editions solved this with auto-scaling. Burning Hands was never intended to be comparable with Fireball, because it was always just a level 1 spell slot. In fifth edition, upranking just feels like a trap, or yet-another penalty for multi-classing.
The problem with static bonuses is that they are quickly dwarfed by more/bigger damage dice, making the stat unimportant. You rightly point out that this is a problem with weapon fighters as it stands. In general, weapon fighters get more benefit from extra attack, which includes re-adding the stat bonus, whereas casters roll more dice for a single attack and would add the bonus only once, making it much less relevant. I'll have to think about this more on how to balance it.
It really depends on the size of the static bonus. When I first read your formula, I thought it was referring to Level as the caster level providing a static bonus, and a Burning Hands for 5d4+15 is actually pretty significant. You can see that already, with the feats that give +10 damage. You can also see it in Eldritch Blast, where the Charisma bonus is multiplied by the number of rays, so there are definitely ways to design it such that the static bonus is meaningful. Personally, I'll take +5 damage over +2d4 any day of the week.

Dropping only a single die size makes the average damage of save-for-half spells much higher than the others. Dropping two die sizes makes them comparable. Half of a d4 is negligible, but when there are many d4s, it makes a difference.
According to my just-woken-up mathematical intuition, it sounds like you're assuming a 50% save rate for spells, which is wildly inaccurate (in my experience). Spellcasting PCs don't usually cast spells to target a save that the opponent is likely to make, and bad saves don't scale at all in this system, which puts the success rate on spells much closer to ninety percent. (Very few monsters are proficient in both Dexterity and Constitution.)

Save-for-half spells should have a much higher average damage than save-negate spells, because they're trading off peak damage for reliability. Save-negate spells are already plenty reliable, though, due to the aforementioned save-scaling issue. While it wouldn't be excessive to make it the difference between d6 and d10, the d4 already suffers from the problem that it's barely above one (on average); even if you just make it the difference between d6 and d12, that would solve half of the problem.
 
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GMMichael

Guide of Modos
I have three goals in my head:
1) balance the abilities in importance with each other
2) make it easier to explain character creation to new players

Consequences:
All martials need Dex and Str. All spellcasters need Int and Cha. Everyone needs Con and Wis.
The designers at WotC would probably be offended after reading goal #1. Goal #2 might be fruitless without an overhaul that would essentially require writing a new game entirely (see next quote).

Also, needing 4 of 6 abilities sounds pretty taxing. If you're going to accommodate that with extra ability bonuses, you might end up with significant ability creep...

#NotWotC
Now if you're thinking of something really different, where say your metaphysical h.p. can only be affected by metaphysical things e.g. mental spells etc. then you're into new and possibly rather messy ground. :)

Not that messy. I wrote an entire RPG on that concept. It's much neater than you might think.
 

ro

First Post
Even if Burning Hands III did the same damage as Fireball III, it still wouldn't be as good, because it has a much smaller area of effect that is much harder to position. By letting them deal the same damage in the same spell slot, you make it so that damaging spells scale linearly with spell level (by shape of effect) rather than quadratically (with both shape and power). Otherwise, upranking a low-level damage spell seems like a trap option, or a desperation move, rather than anything that someone would seriously choose.

It's kind of like if you're making a sci-fi game with guns, and you need to have both pistols and rocket launchers. You need to have some reason why someone would pick a pistol, or else it feels like a trap. If I invest an equal amount of resources into something, then I should expect an equal payoff.

I see what you are saying. However, what about Shatter? It has a 10 ft radius sphere, making it likely easier to place without hitting allies than fireball, and one of the least-resisted damage types. If it kept pace with other spells in damage, it would be simply amazing.

But yeah, area shape and size and damage type would be the differing factors remaining if damage were equal. I am not sure this is a good idea without overhauling spells even more.

Older editions solved this with auto-scaling. Burning Hands was never intended to be comparable with Fireball, because it was always just a level 1 spell slot. In fifth edition, upranking just feels like a trap, or yet-another penalty for multi-classing.
It really depends on the size of the static bonus. When I first read your formula, I thought it was referring to Level as the caster level providing a static bonus, and a Burning Hands for 5d4+15 is actually pretty significant. You can see that already, with the feats that give +10 damage. You can also see it in Eldritch Blast, where the Charisma bonus is multiplied by the number of rays, so there are definitely ways to design it such that the static bonus is meaningful. Personally, I'll take +5 damage over +2d4 any day of the week.

If there is a way to balance adding Cha as a static modifier, then I am for it. I considered Cha * proficiency, but it leaves things unbalanced. I'm still looking at that.

According to my just-woken-up mathematical intuition, it sounds like you're assuming a 50% save rate for spells, which is wildly inaccurate (in my experience). Spellcasting PCs don't usually cast spells to target a save that the opponent is likely to make, and bad saves don't scale at all in this system, which puts the success rate on spells much closer to ninety percent. (Very few monsters are proficient in both Dexterity and Constitution.)

Save-for-half spells should have a much higher average damage than save-negate spells, because they're trading off peak damage for reliability. Save-negate spells are already plenty reliable, though, due to the aforementioned save-scaling issue. While it wouldn't be excessive to make it the difference between d6 and d10, the d4 already suffers from the problem that it's barely above one (on average); even if you just make it the difference between d6 and d12, that would solve half of the problem.

Con saves for damage are half as frequent as Dex saves for damage. Str and Wis are far behind. On average, Con save spells work 49% of the time, and Dex spells 60%, for spell levels 1-7, as enemies quickly get much tougher at higher levels, which would skew the rest of the data. This is across all Monster Manual enemies. A weighted average comes out to 57% success.

But, if you can perfectly target weak saves, that will improve your odds. Choosing perfectly, your odds of success (meaning the monster fails the save) are 66% for levels 1-6, 60% for 7-12, 48% for 13-16, and 36% for 17-20. On average, again not using the last few levels, you have a 61% chance of success.

As you guessed, my calculations were originally done with a straight 50%.
 

I see what you are saying. However, what about Shatter? It has a 10 ft radius sphere, making it likely easier to place without hitting allies than fireball, and one of the least-resisted damage types. If it kept pace with other spells in damage, it would be simply amazing.
Honestly, if your damage equation doesn't account for the relative rarity of damage types, then that's probably something you should address.

If you're just accounting for size and range, then a 10'-radius sphere is easier to place, but it can't hit as many enemies on the field. Given how well players can place things, and the Evoker ability to ignore allies, I am comfortable with saying that a larger radius is almost always better.
Con saves for damage are half as frequent as Dex saves for damage. Str and Wis are far behind. On average, Con save spells work 49% of the time, and Dex spells 60%, for spell levels 1-7, as enemies quickly get much tougher at higher levels, which would skew the rest of the data. This is across all Monster Manual enemies. A weighted average comes out to 57% success.
That doesn't seem right. Are you accounting for the chance that high-level PCs will often face low-level enemies? Especially in consideration of area-effect spells, the target enemy group may well be comprised of enemies that are ten-or-more levels below the party.
 

ro

First Post
Honestly, if your damage equation doesn't account for the relative rarity of damage types, then that's probably something you should address.

If you're just accounting for size and range, then a 10'-radius sphere is easier to place, but it can't hit as many enemies on the field. Given how well players can place things, and the Evoker ability to ignore allies, I am comfortable with saying that a larger radius is almost always better.

Fair enough.

That doesn't seem right. Are you accounting for the chance that high-level PCs will often face low-level enemies? Especially in consideration of area-effect spells, the target enemy group may well be comprised of enemies that are ten-or-more levels below the party.

That's a good thing to point out. This is against same-level enemies rather than minions.

I think you are right, that one die size rather than two will be more balanced.
 

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