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Return of the DonkeyHorse!

Would you buy a book of mundane items full of stuff that would be useless in combat.

  • Yes! I think this would be an excellent source of info for players in my group!

    Votes: 48 39.0%
  • I use info printed elsewhere or before 4e but would buy a 4e DnD version.

    Votes: 8 6.5%
  • No. There is no place for this sort of thing in 4e. The GM should "wing it".

    Votes: 20 16.3%
  • I can see a book like this being useful for others, but I will not buy such a book myself.

    Votes: 47 38.2%

  • Poll closed .

Zaran

Adventurer
I didn't vote.

I would be interested in a big book of stronghold construction, maintenance, and operation rules.

I would be absolutely uninterested in a book that told me things like "a ten foot pole costs you X gp."

What if it had both? It's an imaginary book and this is just an exercise in constructive discussion. I do not think WotC is going to call me up and ask me how I would improve their game.

I'm actually surprised at how many of you have said "no."
 

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Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
I'm not. Most players- as opposed to DMs/Players or pure DMs- only buy the books that they need the most. That translates into feats/powers/races/classes and the like. Some might only buy the most basic books of all.

There are guys in my current group who still don't own a PHB...or any other RPG book at all.

What surprised me was the resistance in the other thread to such a book existing for 4Ed at all.
 

Stormonu

Legend
I still love to thumb through my Aurora's Whole Realms Catalog. However, I found the 3E Arms & Equipment guide less useful and I have serious doubts that a mundane equipment guide would work well with the 4E monetary system. For 4E, I think the Adventurer's Vault(s) pretty much works as the closest you'll likely see for a wide assortment of gear. Not so much that Adventure Vault is a bad thing, but I think any book of gear for 4E would have to use tiered equipment - the "interesting stuff" would have to be given a level and assigned a cost for it to be balanced to the game (sorry, no reavers for 1 sp...).
 

Cadfan

First Post
What if it had both? It's an imaginary book and this is just an exercise in constructive discussion. I do not think WotC is going to call me up and ask me how I would improve their game.

I'm actually surprised at how many of you have said "no."
It would depend on how much good the stronghold rules were. And I guess I could admit that if the boring stuff were too lengthy there might be some of that irrational purchaser-anger involved if I started to feel like I was paying extra for unwanted rules just to get the stronghold rules. Not sure that's 100% defensible, but you know how it is. Sometimes you can sell someone something for $40, but you can't sell them that same thing bundled with something they don't want for the same $40 because now they psychologically value it at less than $40 and resent the extra material they feel is pushing up the price.

Here's how I look at it:

When it comes to stuff like, "how much does a ten foot pole cost?" I seriously do not feel the need for rules. Not only do PCs tend to have huge amounts of purchasing power by mid levels, limiting the use of such material, but I just don't see the need for much granularity. Knowing that a ladder costs X, but a rope costs Y, is useful if you need to make decisions between which you can best afford. But you rarely need to do that in D&D, and if you wanted to make a game where that was necessary, you'd need to re-do the whole imaginary economy to reduce the growth in PC net worth over time. Or to put it another way, anyone who can buy a castle and run a stronghold doesn't have to price shop on rope.

And when it comes to things like "what are the exact stats of a donkey, and how much can it carry?" I don't feel the need for much detail because I can wing that just fine. In fact, if that came up in a game I'd probably feel a bit annoyed at having to look up the "right" answer when a "good enough" answer can be invented out of thin air.

Plus, its not likely that my players will look through a book of mundane gear and say, "Oh! I never thought of that!" They don't need ideas for this sort of stuff. They can come up with that on their own.

But a stronghold book? That's different. Chances are my players don't know how to design a functional castle. Plus there's a cool fantasy-play element in designing a castle, drawing maps, coming up with details like where the archers could be positioned, etc, etc. A castle or stronghold can also be something the PCs can be interested in all through their careers- at low levels, mundane construction and basic gear for a small fortified estate might be fun. At mid levels castles, and at high levels fancy magical upgrades or locales.

A stronghold book can add things that I can't invent off the top of my head, and that's why I think its so much more worthwhile than a book of basic gear, even if the presence of basic gear adds a sense of verisimilitude for some people.
 

Hussar

Legend
I'm not. Most players- as opposed to DMs/Players or pure DMs- only buy the books that they need the most. That translates into feats/powers/races/classes and the like. Some might only buy the most basic books of all.

There are guys in my current group who still don't own a PHB...or any other RPG book at all.

What surprised me was the resistance in the other thread to such a book existing for 4Ed at all.

As I said earlier, I don't really care if it was in a totally supplementary book.

The problem, if you put it in core, is you run into the 4e design philosophy that everything in core is meant to be used. It's not like earlier editions where you got reams of material in core and it was highly unlikely that a given DM would use every single thing. DM's would pick and choose depending on what they wanted.

4e isn't built like that. It's a much more focused design. (Whether that's a good or bad thing, I don't know)

So, if you include something like this in the core design, then you have to allow for it in every subsequent book. Every module now has to take into account these rules. Do the players have Boots Low Soft, granting them a +1 Sneak? How does that affect Skill Challenges? Do the players have the resources of an entire kingdom at their disposal? How does that affect adventure design? Do the players even have the resources of a mid sized trading house (which can easily be tied up in thousands of gold pieces of value) and how does that interact with everything else.

And, how do you balance a game where half the players are buying inns and businesses and the other half are buying adventuring equipment?

Now, you could deal with this by siloing it off entirely from the rest of the game. Nothing within the realm of Macro Economic Gaming interacts directly with the rest of the game. So, you can run a Mercantile House, but, nothing in that silo actually impacts the Combat or Skills silos.

But, I don't think that's quite what people are looking for here. Personally, I could get behind that rather well. Having a castle/mercantile prince/whatever would be an interesting silo, similar to the Affiliations rules for 3.5 in the 3.5 PHB2. Other than some very minor bonuses, the Affiliations had no real direct impact on anything else in the game. They simply added a higher altitude mini game onto the existing game.

That's an idea I could get behind.
 

Nifft

Penguin Herder
But, I don't think that's quite what people are looking for here. Personally, I could get behind that rather well. Having a castle/mercantile prince/whatever would be an interesting silo, similar to the Affiliations rules for 3.5 in the 3.5 PHB2. Other than some very minor bonuses, the Affiliations had no real direct impact on anything else in the game. They simply added a higher altitude mini game onto the existing game.

That's an idea I could get behind.
Seconded.

Cool idea.

Thanks, -- N
 

Ourph

First Post
I bought the Stronghold Builder's guide and the WFRP Companion, both of which sort of fit in with this concept. I found both books to be a complete waste of money, not because the concept isn't sound but because the content wasn't up to par. Because of that, I think I'm done relying on publishers to come up with this stuff and I'd prefer to do it myself in a way that fits in better with my game.
 

Paradox

First Post
I've always said one of my favorite RPG books is Aurora's Whole Realms Catalogue. It was both useful for a game, but more importantly, fun to read.

Actually, now that I think of it, there are plenty of RPG books that I own more to enjoy reading rather than actually playing. Shadowrun, for example. I don't play it, but I love reading the sourcebooks. The same goes for GURPS.
And Paranoia. Fantastic read, but as a long term game? Eh... not so much.

Indeed, my wife is trying to talk me in to getting rid of these game books that I don't play- but I really like reading them.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
If it was well done and didn't dive too deeply into the minutae, a book covering the following could be useful for *all* editions:

- a mundane gear list (cost, weight)
- a list of transport to buy, rent, or build (costs of various ships, carriages, dirigibles, permanent teleport sites etc.; also time required to build same)
- a table for hirelings and services (cost of hiring everything from maids to sages, and of getting others to cast spells for you)
- a table of buildings to buy or build (costs for everything from cottages to inns to castles, also construction times based on available labour)

Inclusion of some design ideas and maps for both transport (particularly ships and dirigibles) and for castles and strongholds would round things out nicely. And if you really want to get fancy, chuck in a few ideas for transportation-based or stronghold-based magic items as well.

This should all easily be able to fit into a standard PH-size hardcover book.

Lan-"what is the cost in 4e to hire a brazen strumpet for the night?"-efan
 

Dice4Hire

First Post
No.

Plenty of that stuff has been printed for previous versions of D&D by various companies. If it is non-combat, then it need not follow the rules as closely, so it should be easy to convert.

In short, no need for this kind of product.
 

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