Revised cleric (concept only)

[Kerrick]

Back when I was working on the classes for Project Phoenix, I kept bashing my head against a wall trying to think of how to revise the cleric (specifically, how to reduce their power level without making them worthless). The best I could come up with was to drop their heavy armor proficiency.

I had also come up with some "roles" - there were, in effect, career choices for different types of clerics. So, you'd have the cloistered cleric (the typical NPC who lives/works in the temple, conducts ceremonies, and casts spells for people for donations); the healer (I can't recall if this one was part of the CC or not, but it had access to the highest-level healing spells); the crusader (basically a paladin); and the utility cleric (has the broadest spellset, mostly focused on summoning, battlefield control, buffs, and some healing).

Each role had minor, lesser, or major access to spells, similar to the 2E sphere system - minor access was up to 3rd level, lesser to 6th, and major was all spells. I had a list of spell types that each role had access to, but I realized that the cleric list was far too limited to make this very effective - a healer, for instance, had something like two 8th level spells. I finally gave up on it and just went with the existing cleric, with the loss of their heavy armor.

The reason I'm bringing this back up is because I saw a mention of cleric "paths" on the Pathfinder forums, and it hit me - the roles that I had come up with would work perfectly as paths, just like I'd done for just about every other class. I could have three paths - the cloistered cleric, the healer, and the utility cleric (who needs a name) - the combat cleric, or crusader, is effectively a holy warrior - and that's already covered by the paladin.

Dropping the crusader from the pool of clerical abilities drops their power by a lot right off the bat, and helps to focus the class' archetype back where it should be - the priest.

Now, what I want to do is lay out the roles, what they do, and maybe give them spell access like before (but also give them the ability to use feats or class abilities to improve their access). Each path will have several unique abilities, like I did with the wizard, in addition to their domains (oh yeah - I changed domains so that you can swap out domain spells spontaneously, instead of healing spells. Since healers would have the Healing domain anyway, this doesn't really affect them.)

Unfortunately, when I gave up on my previous idea, I deleted the document with all my ideas, so I'd have to rebuild it. Before I go to the trouble, though... is this a viable idea? I personally think it is - I think clerics are too powerful and step on too many other class' toes, and I'd love to find a way to distill them down to their essence and rebuild them with more interesting abilities.

 

[Kerrick]

Aha! I found a copy on my thumb drive, where I keep my backup files. Here's what I had originally:

A god's role influences his portfolios and what domains his clerics can choose; it also influences the role his clerics play in the world. The various roles are broken down into four broad categories: combat, healer, support, and utility. A cleric's choice of available spells (and the maximum level for each type of spell) is dependent on his role, as are the class abilities he gains (including weapon and armor proficiencies). All clerics, regardless of their role, are proficient with their god's chosen weapon, even if it's a martial weapon.

A given god can have more than one role (and those with several portfolios often do); generally speaking, common portfolios break down as follows:

Corruption, disease, chaos, entropy: Support, utility
Crafting (any): Healer, utility
Destruction, murder, slaughter, chaos, conflict, war: Combat
Knowledge, divination, the arts: Healer, utility
Life, healing: Healer, support
Luck, chance, gambling, trickery: Support, utility
Magic (arcane or divine): Combat, utility
Nature, plants, animals, weather, sun: Healer, support, utility
Protection, guards, wards: Combat, support
Thieves, darkness, secrets: Support, utility
Travel: Support, utility
Undead, necromancy, death: Healer, utility

This is not, of course, an exhaustive list, but it should enable DMs to match other portfolios with roles that most closely match them.

Based on their roles, clerics can have major, lesser, or minor access to spells. Major focus allows spells of any level; a lesser focus allows spells up to 6th level; and a minor focus allows spells up to 3rd level.

Combat: The cleric fights on the front lines in support of his god. Combat clerics are more concerned with smiting their enemies and crusading in support of the church, so their spells are more focused to that end, rather than supporting others; they can heal to some degree, but not nearly as much as a healer or support cleric. Combat clerics have major focus in offensive spells like flame strike and blade barrier, lesser focus in summoning spells, and minor focus in enhancement and healing spells.

A combat cleric is proficient in all types of armor and shields (except tower shields) and all simple weapons; he also gains proficiency with two martial weapons and has the Weapon Focus feat applied to his god's weapon for free.

Healer: Clerics who fill this role are most often found in shrines and temples serving the populace at large, not out adventuring. They are the ones who raise the dead, cure diseases, remove curses, and perform other services for fees or donations. They alone have access to the most powerful healing spells (major focus), and lesser focus in divinations and travel spells like astral projection.

Healer clerics very little combat ability – they are proficient in light armor and shields, and can use any six simple weapons.

Support: Support clerics are just that – clerics who remain in the rear and aid their companions with healing, enhancements, and some summoned/created creatures. They have major focus in enhancements and protection and summoning spells, and lesser focus in healing and battlefield control spells.

Support clerics fight if necessary, though they are not nearly as good as combat clerics; their strength lies in their ability to keep their companions in the fight. They are proficient in light and medium armor and shields, and all simple weapons.

Utility: Utility clerics have perhaps the broadest role, but the smallest focus on any one aspect. They provide useful skills to a party like lore and divination, lesser enhancements, created/animated undead and summoned creatures, and battlefield control. They have major access in divinations, utility spells like find traps, travel spells like astral projection, and summoning/creation spells, lesser focus in battlefield control spells like spike stones, and minor focus in healing spells.

Utility clerics are second-line fighters like support clerics – they are proficient in light and medium armor and shields, and all simple weapons, but can also choose one martial weapon (besides their god's chosen weapon, if it is martial).

Spontaneous Casting: A cleric can channel stored spell energy into spells from the domains he did not prepare ahead of time. The cleric can “lose” any prepared spell that is not a domain spell in order to cast any domain spell from either of his chosen domains of the same spell level or lower.


What I want to do, after looking at this, is change it so that a cleric's path influences what gods he chooses, not the other way around.

 

[Hawken]

I would limit the choices to two paths for each class and allow enough flexibility in each path for customization. Your examples of Wizard and Sorcerer illustrate this point well enough.

Healer is not a good (or fun) option for Cleric. While healing is very important, nobody wants to be the walking, breathing band-aid for the group. It also seems kind of hypocritical for a 'healer', someone devoted to treating injuries and relieving suffering, to have competent combat abilities and being able to put people in an early grave. Combat clerics are already around; they're called Paladins. Utility and Support are pretty much the same thing and neither fit the Cleric class, but are more like those pesky 4e "roles".

Clerics are stewards of souls, servants of gods, etc., etc.,. While they may take a secondary place in group (combat) dynamics, their goals are always going to be of primary concern. Support/Utility roles mean the Cleric is placing the will of his deity second to a mortal's ambitions and goals and it also implies that the powers granted by the deity are not enough for the Cleric to get the job done.

I would suggest the Cloistered Cleric and the "regular" Cleric as path choices. Although, I'd change the Cloistered name, maybe a different religious title like Minister or even just Priest, much for the same reason and hypothetical discussion I gave for non-specialized Wizards.

So, using the Priest (in place of Cloistered Cleric) and Cleric, here is a suggestion for differences.

Priest:
BAB: 1/2
Saves: Will Good, Fort/Ref Poor.
HD: D4
Armor: None
Weapons: Simple.

Cleric:
BAB: 3/4
Saves: Fort/Will Good, Ref Poor.
HD: D8
Armor: Light, shields.
Weapons: Simple, Favored Weapons.

Priest Special Abilities:
Defense: Priests gain a Divine bonus to AC equal to their Wisdom modifier. This power operates as the Monk ability.
Domains: Priests begin with two Domains, like Clerics. They gain the regular Domain powers, but get to cast EACH of their domain spells each day, rather than choosing one Domain spell of each spell level. At 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th, Priests learn a new Domain of their deity's portfolio, until they have learned a maximum number of domains equal to their Wisdom modifier.
Vow of Service: Priests gain the benefits of the Vow of Poverty feat. The benefits of this ability do NOT stack or work in conjunction with any powers from magic items.
Consecrated Turning: Priests in the area of a Consecrate spell or on the grounds of any temple, church, or shrine always Turn at their Priest level or higher, even if their Turn check indicates they would Turn at a lower level. Priests may Turn normally or as a full round action and gain a +3 bonus to their Turn check and the Turn damage.

Cleric Special Abilities:
As per PHB, except where different here:
Domains: Clerics begin with one Domain. They get access to the Domain ability, but do not get an extra spell slot of each level for Domain spells. Instead, they can Spontaneously convert any spell to a Cure spell or their Domain spell.
Second Domain: At 10th level, Clerics gain access to a second Domain, gaining its special ability. Clerics gain an extra spell of each spell level they can cast and this spell must be selected from one of their Domains. Clerics can still spontaneously cast any Cure or Domain spell from their prepared spells.
Martial Training: At 3rd level, Clerics do not gain any spellcasting abilities and instead choose one of the following:
** Learn the Medium Armor proficiency feat and Dodge feat.
** Gain Weapon Focus with the deity's Favored Weapon.
Martial Training: At 8th level, Clerics do not gain any spellcasting abilities and instead choose one of the following:
** Learn the Heavy Armor proficiency feat and the Mobility feat.
** Gain Weapon Specialization with the deity's Favored Weapon.

 

[Kerrick]

I would limit the choices to two paths for each class and allow enough flexibility in each path for customization. Your examples of Wizard and Sorcerer illustrate this point well enough.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was thinking - 2-3 paths total. More than that is just too much to handle.

Healer is not a good (or fun) option for Cleric. While healing is very important, nobody wants to be the walking, breathing band-aid for the group.

Yeah. I was thinking of combining this with the cloistered cleric (the priest).

Combat clerics are already around; they're called Paladins.

Yup.

Utility and Support are pretty much the same thing and neither fit the Cleric class, but are more like those pesky 4e "roles".

I was thinking about this earlier, and those two could easily be combined.

Clerics are stewards of souls, servants of gods, etc., etc.,. While they may take a secondary place in group (combat) dynamics, their goals are always going to be of primary concern. Support/Utility roles mean the Cleric is placing the will of his deity second to a mortal's ambitions and goals and it also implies that the powers granted by the deity are not enough for the Cleric to get the job done.

Eh... maybe. But that's leading more toward the crusader, which we agree is more the paladin's shtick. The problem is that clerics are really hard to pin down - we know what they DO, but it's difficult to define it in game mechanics. Healer (priest) is really the closest analogue, but no one wants to play that all the time.

Maybe we could give the cleric (not the priest, but the cleric path) a little bit of each aspect - healer, support/utility, and combat - and then give them choices as they level to become better in one or two aspects, but not all? That way, you can make a crusader who's good at controlling the battlefield and smiting enemies (similar to a paladin, but with more spells and less combat ability) you can - but he won't be as good at healing. Similarly, you can have a cleric who's really good at healing and support, but not a strong fighter (similar to the priest). This could cover the widest array of gods and portfolios (flexibility) without increasing overall complexity (having different BABs, saves, proficiencies, etc.). It would be similar to the bard, where you can take several low-level abilities, but once you get higher up, you have to focus.

I would suggest the Cloistered Cleric and the "regular" Cleric as path choices. Although, I'd change the Cloistered name, maybe a different religious title like Minister or even just Priest, much for the same reason and hypothetical discussion I gave for non-specialized Wizards.

Priest works. The only problem here is that very few players would choose priest - they're pretty much non-combat characters, which relegates them to NPC status.

So, using the Priest (in place of Cloistered Cleric) and Cleric, here is a suggestion for differences.

I'd like to keep them on more or less the same page - as in, one chart. I could drop the HD to d6 and saves to Will high, then grant the cleric path a high Fort save and better armor in addition as a class ability. Leave them both with 3/4 BAB - the priest's lousy weapon selection won't give them a huge advantage there.

Priest Special Abilities:

Defense: Priests gain a Divine bonus to AC equal to their Wisdom modifier. This power operates as the Monk ability.

Hmm.

Domains: Priests begin with two Domains, like Clerics. They gain the regular Domain powers, but get to cast EACH of their domain spells each day, rather than choosing one Domain spell of each spell level. At 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th, Priests learn a new Domain of their deity's portfolio, until they have learned a maximum number of domains equal to their Wisdom modifier.

Interesting. So they're basically specialist wizards, but for divine casters.

Vow of Service: Priests gain the benefits of the Vow of Poverty feat. The benefits of this ability do NOT stack or work in conjunction with any powers from magic items.

Ugh, no. Not only do I want to keep this OGC, but VoP is one of (if not THE) most broken feats ever written.

Consecrated Turning: Priests in the area of a Consecrate spell or on the grounds of any temple, church, or shrine always Turn at their Priest level or higher, even if their Turn check indicates they would Turn at a lower level. Priests may Turn normally or as a full round action and gain a +3 bonus to their Turn check and the Turn damage.

The only time someone takes a penalty to turning is in the area of a desecrate spell, or a sinkhole of evil (basically the same thing).

Domains: Clerics begin with one Domain. They get access to the Domain ability, but do not get an extra spell slot of each level for Domain spells. Instead, they can Spontaneously convert any spell to a Cure spell or their Domain spell.

Second Domain: At 10th level, Clerics gain access to a second Domain, gaining its special ability. Clerics gain an extra spell of each spell level they can cast and this spell must be selected from one of their Domains. Clerics can still spontaneously cast any Cure or Domain spell from their prepared spells.

One domain is much better, but giving them the extra slot with the first domain might be easier from a bookkeeping perspective.

Martial Training: At 3rd level, Clerics do not gain any spellcasting abilities and instead choose one of the following:
** Learn the Medium Armor proficiency feat and Dodge feat.
** Gain Weapon Focus with the deity's Favored Weapon.

Martial Training: At 8th level, Clerics do not gain any spellcasting abilities and instead choose one of the following:
** Learn the Heavy Armor proficiency feat and the Mobility feat.
** Gain Weapon Specialization with the deity's Favored Weapon.

These would be good for the crusader aspect (though I'm not sure that someone in heavier armor would be all that mobile).

 

[Kerrick]

I did a little work last night before my shoulder started aching too badly to think, and this is what I came up with. These are all just preliminary ideas - stuff to toss out and smack around until they fall into place.

The cleric can choose from one of three paths, as I said before, but like the bard, he's not locked into one path - he can pick and choose abilities from each path, provided he qualifies for them. These abilities are available at 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th (so a total of 5).

I'm also considering dropping the HD to d6 but keeping the BAB/saves the same - so it makes them moderately effective, but not overshadowing the fighter classes. I also want to give them a third domain at 20th, to give them something to shoot for.

Crusader
The cleric fights on the front lines in support of his god. Crusaders are similar to paladins, but not as proficient on the battlefield; they more concerned with smiting their enemies and crusading in support of the church, so their spells are more focused to that end, rather than supporting others. They can heal to some degree, but not nearly as much as a Healer or Priest.

Level I: The cleric can choose proficiency in medium armor, or the Dodge feat.

Level II: The cleric can take Weapon Focus with his god's chosen weapon, or he can gain proficiency in any three martial weapons or one exotic weapon.

Level III: The cleric gains proficiency in heavy armor (requires medium armor proficiency) or the Mobility feat (requires Dodge).

Level IV: ???

Level V: ???


Healer
Clerics who fill this role are most often found in shrines and temples serving the populace at large, not out adventuring. They are the ones who raise the dead, cure diseases, remove curses, and perform other services for fees or donations. They can, however, accompany adventuring parties; most clerics advance at least partway along this path to supplement their other abilities. Healers have very little combat ability.

Note that "healer" applies to clerics who can channel positive energy. An evil cleric who channels negative energy also falls under this category.

Level I: The cleric gains a +2 bonus to Heal checks and can automatically maximize one cure or inflict spell per day.

Level II: ???

Level III: The cleric can empower a number of healing spells per day equal to his Wisdom bonus. (Requires maximized channeling.)

Level IV: Three times per day, the cleric can unleash a burst of positive energy in a 30-foot radius. The burst heals living beings for 1d6 points per cleric level (max 20d6) and damages undead for the same amount. Evil clerics channel negative energy that damages living beings and heals undead. This ability cannot be maximized or empowered via previous abilities.

Level V: ???


Priest
Priests have perhaps the broadest role, but the smallest focus on any one aspect. They provide useful skills to a party like lore and divination, enhancements, created/animated undead and summoned creatures, and battlefield control. They tend to be second-line fighters – not as effective in combat as a Crusader, but able to hold their own in most combats.

Level I: The cleric can choose any one Knowledge skill as a class skill, or add a +3 bonus to an existing Knowledge skill.

 

[Hawken]

I was a little confused (initially) about your level I-V, so I just list them here at the level they are acquired.

Crusader
Armor: Proficient with Light, Medium, and Heavy armor, and shields.
Weapons: Proficient with Simple and Martial Weapons, and the Favored Weapon of the deity.
Spellcasting: Crusaders cast spells as Clerics, however they do not gain levels of spellcasting at the same rate. They gain a level of spellcasting every Even numbered level, but their caster level is the same as their cleric level. Crusaders do not gain access to any Domains.
Channel Divinity: Crusaders do not get the ability to Turn Undead, but they do get the same number of "Turn" attempts that they can use to power Divine feats. In addition, at 1st level, they begin play with 1 Divine feat. The Extra Turning feat works normally for them and provides extra uses of their Channel Divinity.
Feats: Crusaders gain bonus feats at 5th, 10th, 15th and 20th levels. These feats may be selected from the Fighter list of bonus feats or may be a Divine feat. They must meet the prerequisites for any feat desired.

2) Smite Infidel: The Crusader may Smite anyone who is an enemy of the Crusader's church regardless of alignment. This automatically includes anyone who is Evil or any Undead. The Smite works much the same as the Paladin's Smite, but the Crusader also is treated as having the Improved Critical feat while making a Smite attack. The Crusader gets this ability 1/day and gains an additional use at each following level of special abilities.

6) Weapon Expertise: The Crusader gains Weapon Focus in his Favored Weapon and gains access to Weapon Specialization with that weapon that he can later spend a feat to acquire. If he already has Weapon Focus, he gains Weapon Specialization with that weapon.

10) Unwavering Zeal: The Crusader adds his Charisma modifier to any saving throw whose failure would directly result in the Crusader's death. The Crusader is now immune to any Charm or Compulsion effect.

14) Army of Faith: The Crusader gains the Leadership feat and adds his Wisdom modifier to his Charisma modifier to determine his Leadership Score. The Crusader's Cohort is a Paladin (if Lawful Good) or another Crusader precisely 2 levels lower than the Crusader's character level. The Crusader's followers are all either Clerics, Fighters, or Paladins. If the Crusader takes the Extra Followers feat, he gains triple the amount of followers instead of double.

18) Undying Devotion: If the Crusader is killed or reduced to -10hp, he is immediately and fully restored to full life and vigor. All harmful or debilitating conditions are removed, any and all energy/ability drain is restored as well. For 10 rounds after this revival, all of the Crusader's ability scores receive a +4 divine bonus, he gains 15 temporary hit points per point of Charisma modifier and a +4 bonus to AC and all saves. This power works only once per Crusader level.

 

[Kerrick]

I was a little confused (initially) about your level I-V, so I just list them here at the level they are acquired.

It's basically just a list of abilities in the order they can be acquired - Level I is at class L2, Level II at class level 6, etc.

Spellcasting: Crusaders cast spells as Clerics, however they do not gain levels of spellcasting at the same rate. They gain a level of spellcasting every Even numbered level, but their caster level is the same as their cleric level. Crusaders do not gain access to any Domains.

If caster level is the same as cleric level, how is this any different? An why wouldn't they gain any domains? I'm thinking that a cleric of a god of war would be a Crusader.

Channel Divinity: Crusaders do not get the ability to Turn Undead, but they do get the same number of "Turn" attempts that they can use to power Divine feats. In addition, at 1st level, they begin play with 1 Divine feat. The Extra Turning feat works normally for them and provides extra uses of their Channel Divinity.

Sorry, can't use divine feats - they're not OGC. And why would they not have the ability to turn undead?

Feats: Crusaders gain bonus feats at 5th, 10th, 15th and 20th levels. These feats may be selected from the Fighter list of bonus feats or may be a Divine feat. They must meet the prerequisites for any feat desired.

I was going to give them bonus fighter feats (either 2 or 3, not sure) as long as they meet the prereqs - I figured it'd be a lot easier and more flexible than assigning random feats.

2) Smite Infidel: The Crusader may Smite anyone who is an enemy of the Crusader's church regardless of alignment. This automatically includes anyone who is Evil or any Undead. The Smite works much the same as the Paladin's Smite, but the Crusader also is treated as having the Improved Critical feat while making a Smite attack. The Crusader gets this ability 1/day and gains an additional use at each following level of special abilities.

Not bad. I can use that.... but, you're assuming the cleric is good-aligned. Evil clerics wouldn't necessarily want to smite undead, and certainly not other evil beings.

10) Unwavering Zeal: The Crusader adds his Charisma modifier to any saving throw whose failure would directly result in the Crusader's death. The Crusader is now immune to any Charm or Compulsion effect.

Mm... the first part is kind of cool, but I dropped immunities, except in special cases. They were becoming too rampant, leading to a game of "how do I trump the immunity" - they're got feats in Sandstorm and Frostburn that let you deal energy damage to creatures immune to fire/cold.

14) Army of Faith: The Crusader gains the Leadership feat and adds his Wisdom modifier to his Charisma modifier to determine his Leadership Score. The Crusader's Cohort is a Paladin (if Lawful Good) or another Crusader precisely 2 levels lower than the Crusader's character level. The Crusader's followers are all either Clerics, Fighters, or Paladins. If the Crusader takes the Extra Followers feat, he gains triple the amount of followers instead of double.

This seems more like a PrC ability than a core class ability.

18) Undying Devotion: If the Crusader is killed or reduced to -10hp, he is immediately and fully restored to full life and vigor. All harmful or debilitating conditions are removed, any and all energy/ability drain is restored as well. For 10 rounds after this revival, all of the Crusader's ability scores receive a +4 divine bonus, he gains 15 temporary hit points per point of Charisma modifier and a +4 bonus to AC and all saves. This power works only once per Crusader level.

.... Wow. That's reminiscent of a 4E epic destiny power (matter of fact, I'm fairly sure I saw something very close to it), and quite abusable - "Hey Joe, I'm at 1 hit point! Kill me so I can auto-heal to max!"

Taken all together, this makes Crusaders very powerful - perhaps moreso than the base cleric. What I want to do is make a high-level Crusader (someone who goes the whole way along the path) able to hold his own in battle without overshadowing the fighter or paladin.

If we went with d6 HD and two good saves, he'd have 2 fighter feats, WF and maybe WS, the ability to smite infidels, and undying zeal (in some form; I might apply a couple changes). So he'd likely have AP Medium, another combat feat, decent combat ability and enough hit points to stay in the fight, but not enough to stand on the front lines beside the fighter.


On a side topic... I was thinking about the Priest at work today, trying to figure out their shtick. They are they archetypal priest - they preside over births and funerals, weddings and baptisms and blessings. They are who you call in to exorcise the haunted mansion (though a Crusader can come smite the undead for you), lift a curse (though a Healer can do it also), or provide atonement for your sins. They are the mortal representative of their god on Earth (or Faerun, or wherever you are). With that in mind, I thought up some abilities for them:

Turn undead like all clerics, but they get extra benefits (maybe affecting outsiders at higher levels);

Boosted blessings - spells like bless, prayer, and aid have extra benefits, or are empowered if cast on others of the faith.

The ability to use atonement, geas/quest, and similar spells 1/day;

The ability (at very high level - like 18th) to call upon an emissary of their god to aid them in a time of need. The creature called would vary by alignment and portfolio, but should be something appropriate. For example, a cleric of Pelor could call down an astral deva; a cleric of Erythnul would get a demon; and a cleric of Moradin would get a huge earth elemental.

 

[Hawken]

If caster level is the same as cleric level, how is this any different? An why wouldn't they gain any domains? I'm thinking that a cleric of a god of war would be a Crusader.

The difference is spell casting ability. A 10th level Crusader will cast spells as a 5th level Cleric but his spells will operate as though cast at 10th level rather than 5th.

This keeps the power of their spells comparable to the power level of the game while not giving them the same access to spells or number of spells per day that a 10th level caster would get.

And I was thinking no Domains because that will be the providence of Priests and Healers, while the Crusader would be closer in line to a Paladin. And his lack of Domains would be compensated by greater fighting ability.

Sorry, can't use divine feats - they're not OGC. And why would they not have the ability to turn undead?

Then you could make Divine feats, call them something else. Whatever. I was thinking of something more combat-related they could use instead of Turning. Crusaders are going to want to fight and crush things, not send them running away.

Not bad. I can use that.... but, you're assuming the cleric is good-aligned. Evil clerics wouldn't necessarily want to smite undead, and certainly not other evil beings.

Sure they would. Evil Clerics would definitely want to Smite Undead they could not control, could not Turn or those that broke their control. Same with Evil. What greater threat to control subordinates than to be able to lay the unholy smackdown on potential usurpers? And it fits in with the theme of Evil turning on itself. Plus, with the Infidel description (enemy of their church), their Smite can still be used on Good.

Mm... the first part is kind of cool, but I dropped immunities, except in special cases. They were becoming too rampant, leading to a game of "how do I trump the immunity" - they're got feats in Sandstorm and Frostburn that let you deal energy damage to creatures immune to fire/cold.

You're right. Drop the immunity and its on par with the Divine Grace of the Paladin, but applies only in specific circumstances.

This seems more like a PrC ability than a core class ability.

Maybe. But think that by that level, the Crusader has a rep for going out and doing the tough stuff that no one else can or wants to. They are bound to attract followers, people sufficiently impressed with their zeal and accomplishments that they want to go out and do the same thing. And by that time, for the big threats they are going to be facing, they are likely going to need an army. If you don't want an army in your campaign, the followers could represent new church members and staff that can serve as the base of operations for the Crusader.

.... Wow. That's reminiscent of a 4E epic destiny power (matter of fact, I'm fairly sure I saw something very close to it), and quite abusable - "Hey Joe, I'm at 1 hit point! Kill me so I can auto-heal to max!"

Taken all together, this makes Crusaders very powerful - perhaps moreso than the base cleric. What I want to do is make a high-level Crusader (someone who goes the whole way along the path) able to hold his own in battle without overshadowing the fighter or paladin.

If you feel the power is too much, remove the bonuses after the Crusader is restored. The potential for abuse is there, but it is limited. With the power working only 1/level, the Crusader better have a tight grip on homicidal party members and, like any other divine class, the receipt of his powers depends on him following the dictates of his religion and deity (DM). If his deity (DM) is not happy with the use of his powers, he doesn't get them.

Admittedly, it could be epic, but at 17th level, Clerics get True Resurrection and this (without the bonuses after raising) is basically like a contingency True Resurrection.

 

[Kerrick]

The difference is spell casting ability. A 10th level Crusader will cast spells as a 5th level Cleric but his spells will operate as though cast at 10th level rather than 5th.

This keeps the power of their spells comparable to the power level of the game while not giving them the same access to spells or number of spells per day that a 10th level caster would get.

Ah. I've got a different idea about that (see below).

And I was thinking no Domains because that will be the providence of Priests and Healers, while the Crusader would be closer in line to a Paladin. And his lack of Domains would be compensated by greater fighting ability.

I see... but I don't want to make them too much like the paladin - that would defeat the purpose. A Crusader should have greater spellcasting power than a paladin, but less combat ability.

Then you could make Divine feats, call them something else. Whatever. I was thinking of something more combat-related they could use instead of Turning. Crusaders are going to want to fight and crush things, not send them running away.

True, though I fixed turning a long time ago to deal with that. I'm leaning toward giving Crusaders the smite ability instead of turning undead, since it is more their province.

Sure they would. Evil Clerics would definitely want to Smite Undead they could not control, could not Turn or those that broke their control. Same with Evil. What greater threat to control subordinates than to be able to lay the unholy smackdown on potential usurpers? And it fits in with the theme of Evil turning on itself. Plus, with the Infidel description (enemy of their church), their Smite can still be used on Good.

I suppose so, yeah. Smiting undead just sounds a lot more like something a paladin would do, not a necromancer.

If you feel the power is too much, remove the bonuses after the Crusader is restored. The potential for abuse is there, but it is limited. With the power working only 1/level, the Crusader better have a tight grip on homicidal party members and, like any other divine class, the receipt of his powers depends on him following the dictates of his religion and deity (DM). If his deity (DM) is not happy with the use of his powers, he doesn't get them.

Yeah. I like to think that a good DM would take control of things like that and not let the player abuse them, but I see a lot of DMs who seemingly can't say no.

Admittedly, it could be epic, but at 17th level, Clerics get True Resurrection and this (without the bonuses after raising) is basically like a contingency True Resurrection.

Heh. Actually... I bumped raise dead and resurrection up a couple levels - 6th and 9th, respectively. True res is now a grand ritual, accessible at epic levels - that spell is way too powerful. Contingent resurrection, BTW, is an epic spell.


As for my idea... I came up with it this morning and thought it over at work to bash out some of the kinks, though I'm sure I missed a couple things. I found a way to include the minor/lesser/greater access, by making it similar to wizard specializations. Instead of losing a whole bunch of spells, though, all clerics start with minor access to all spells. I had to change the levels at which you gain abilities to accommodate this - it's now 1st, 5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th.

At L5 (the first step), they gain lesser access to all but two schools; at L13 (the fourth step), they gain greater access to all but one school, and lesser access to one of their minor schools.

So, it looks something like this:

Crusader: L2: Lesser access to all but Divination and Necromancy*; L4: gains lesser access to Necromancy.

Healer: L2: Lesser access to all but Evocation and Transmutation; L4: lesser access to Transmutation. (Evil healers are often called necromancers, since they deal with negative energy and the undead moreso than healing people.)

Priest: L2: Lesser access to all but Evocation and Necromancy; L4: Lesser access to Necromancy.

*Necromancy now includes all healing spells - I put them back where they belong.

The only problem I can see (and it may not actually BE a problem) is combining two paths. Let's say you have a 17th level cleric, a Crusader 3/Necromancer 2 (that is, he's taken three steps along the Crusader path and 2 on the Healer path). He has lesser access to all schools (you use the higher path's access), but greater access to nothing.

So (and this is something I just thought of), I'm thinking a cleric's levels in any path stack for purposes of determining spell access. Since Abjuration, Conjuration, and Enchantment are unrestricted on both lists, he gets greater access to those (I left Illusion out because there are no clerical illusion spells), and lesser access to Divination, Evocation, Necromancy, and Transmutation (since none of those are restricted on the other path's list - if he'd taken Healer and Priest, he would be limited to minor access in Evocation). With his class abilities, this could be a fairly strong PC without being overpowered (though it really depends on said abilities, and I'd have to make an actual PC to see how it would work in practice).

 

[Kerrick]

Here are some ideas for the various paths (mostly Crusader and Healer right now, because they're the easiest).

Level I: Smite the Unbelievers (Su): 3 times per day, a cleric can attempt to smite good or evil (depending on his alignment), or someone of an opposing faith (no matter the alignment) as a standard action with a melee attack. He adds his Charisma bonus (if any) to his attack roll and deals 2 extra points of damage per class level, plus his Charisma bonus. Any class-based abilities that would normally apply to a melee attack (sneak attack, e.g.) can be added to this roll also, if applicable. If the cleric accidentally smites a creature that is not of an opposing alignment of faith, the smite has no effect, but the ability is still used up for that day.

Clerics of a neutral deity can use this ability to smite those of extreme alignments only – LG, CG, LE, or CE. If the cleric attempts to smite a creature that has a neutral component in its alignment, the smite has no effect, but the ability is still used up for that day.

He gains lesser access to all spells except for Divination and Necromancy.
(This is the same ability the paladin gets; I wanted to keep them identical for the purposes of PrC and feat prereqs).

Level II: The cleric gains a bonus feat from the fighter bonus feat list. He must still qualify for the feat.

Level III: ???
He also gains greater access to all spells except for Necromancy (for which he gains lesser access) and Divination (minor access).

Level IV: The cleric gains a bonus feat from the fighter bonus feat list. He must still qualify for the feat.

Healer

Level I: The cleric gains a +2 bonus to Heal checks and can spontaeously lose a prepared spell (but not a domain spell) to cast a Necromancy spell of the same or lower level. He can also turn or command/rebuke undead with a +2 bonus to the check.

Level II: The cleric can maximize a number of cure or inflict wounds spells per day equal to his Wisdom bonus. He gains lesser access to all spells except for Divination and Evocation.

Level III: ???

Level IV: The cleric can empower a number of healing spells per day equal to his Wisdom bonus. He gains greater access to all spells except for Divination (lesser access) and Evocation (minor access).

Level V: Healing Burst (Su): Three times per day, a cleric can sacrifice any cure or inflict wounds spell to create a burst of positive or negative energy in a 30-foot radius. The amount healed or inflicted is equal to twice that of the spell, +1 per class level (maximum +20). So, for instance, the cleric could sacrifice a cure serious wounds to heal 6d8+level points of damage in a 30-foot radius.

Priest

Level I: The cleric can choose any one Knowledge skill as a class skill, or add a +3 bonus to an existing Knowledge skill. He can turn or command/rebuke undead as normal.

Level II: The cleric gains a bonus feat from the fighter bonus feat list. He must still qualify for the feat.


Those abilities you posited for the Crusader - Army of Faith and Undying Devotion - would be really good for an epic cleric/paladin PrC... I'm thinking it's called the Hand of God. It's someone who's very high up in the church hierarchy, who's crusaded against the enemies of the church, participated in many battles, and is a leader. Undying Devotion would apply once/year - the god wouldn't want his chosen champion dying without cause. He could also get improved smite powers - like, when he smites someone, it sends out a burst of energy that induces fear in the target's allies. He could also inspire awe/intimidation/fear with his mere presence.