Revised cleric (concept only)

[Sylrae]

Hmm. I have planned out a revised cleric, but I was doing it quite differently.

1. Paladin is a PrC(revised as a 10 level prc), as it's a good Blackguard, (by abilities). > this is mainly because the focused 'battle cleric as a good only class always kindof irked me, plus you make a more effective paladin as a 50/50 fighter cleric than as a paladin.'

The issue I have with clerics are
A) They arent specialized enough,
and
B) Theyre only balanced if your emphasize healing. you take a cleric and NOT be the healer, and you are a better fighter than the fighter, because of all your spells. You's not quite as good a mage as a mage, but you can make up for that with undead and planar abilities.

So the way I've been planning to break it down is like this:
Priest: The divine equivalent of a Wizard. Maybe a d6 HD. Slightly bigger spell list. Basically a modification of wizard for divine magic.
Cleric: The Battle-Priest. Based on current cleric, reduced spells/day.

Then I'm going to make them specialize more, but the same ways.
1. Domain spells will need to be more important than non domain spells.
2. Turn/Rebuke/Drop spells for healing will be deity dependent, mayhaps replaced by other things.
3. Divine casting is spontaneous, from your whole spell lists, but casting occurs differently.
roll religion vs dc:15+spell level (havent worked out the dcs yet). a failed roll means the slot is used but nothing happens. you also spend however long the spell takes to cast. It's the equivalent to arcane spell failure for wizards (which I'm also thinking of revising, to make some sort of skill based thing)

I should note I make healing potions cost half what they do in the DMG. And you can get healing potions for levels high enough that they shouldnt be in potion form. Players often carry a dozen potions with them. (each)

 

[Kerrick]

1. Paladin is a PrC(revised as a 10 level prc), as it's a good Blackguard, (by abilities). > this is mainly because the focused 'battle cleric as a good only class always kindof irked me, plus you make a more effective paladin as a 50/50 fighter cleric than as a paladin.'

True on both counts. I fixed the former by making the paladin a generic "holy warrior" class. I almost renamed it the champion, but I decided to stick with paladin. They get auras, kind of like the knight (I borrowed a couple ideas from Pathfinder), lay on hands, and their cure disease/etc. thing is split out into a divine touch - it scales, so as they gain levels, they can cure/inflict disease, ability damage, and levels. I might give them another level of spells and expand their list a bit; by buffing up their power, we can get them on a par with fighters, and obviate the need for a Crusader cleric and just have Healer and Priest (the priest of a war god can have some combat ability, but not nearly on a par with the paladin or fighter).

The only thing is, we don't want to make the cleric a "why should I play this?" class - they should be fun and interesting to play and be able to pull their weight in a party. Having only two choices for paths limits customization a bit, even with the priest's broad range of potential abilities.

The issue I have with clerics are
A) They arent specialized enough,

Agreed.

and
B) Theyre only balanced if your emphasize healing. you take a cleric and NOT be the healer, and you are a better fighter than the fighter, because of all your spells. You's not quite as good a mage as a mage, but you can make up for that with undead and planar abilities.

Yeah, the spells are what make or break them, really. Reducing their armor prof to medium or light helps a bit, too, as well as the two good saves and the d8 HD. So, by dropping the HD to d6, the armor prof to light (with the option to improve it), it nerfs their power quite a lot without removing the spells that fit their general archetype of "healer, helper, smiter of beings opposed to the church". Limiting their choice of spells (like I did) should also help curb their power.

Priest: The divine equivalent of a Wizard. Maybe a d6 HD. Slightly bigger spell list. Basically a modification of wizard for divine magic.
Cleric: The Battle-Priest. Based on current cleric, reduced spells/day.

So are you splitting it into two classes, or making two paths for the same class? And what about the healer-type cleric?

1. Domain spells will need to be more important than non domain spells.

Yes. I'm doing that by letting them spontaneously cast domain spells instead of cure/inflict spells.

2. Turn/Rebuke/Drop spells for healing will be deity dependent, mayhaps replaced by other things.

Amen. Not all clerics of all gods should be able to turn undead. I was going to give Crusaders the smite power, Healers turn/command undead as normal, and Priests turn undead also, but I could let Priests (who are the most "general" cleric) gain another more relevant ability in place of it, at the DM's discretion. A cleric of the god of music and song, for instance, could get a minor bard song (fascinate, or something); a cleric of the god of magic would have a bonus to Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft, and be able to prepare cantrips in place of his orisons.

3. Divine casting is spontaneous, from your whole spell lists, but casting occurs differently.

roll religion vs dc:15+spell level (havent worked out the dcs yet). a failed roll means the slot is used but nothing happens. you also spend however long the spell takes to cast. It's the equivalent to arcane spell failure for wizards (which I'm also thinking of revising, to make some sort of skill based thing)

Eh... I'm not too keen on skill-based spellcasting. I did, however, change the ASF thing to a Concentration check and applied it to ALL classes (see here.

---

I actually had an idea this morning - we keep the paths, but give them mutiple choices at each step, like I did with the monk. This will allow for greater customization and focus without, hopefully, breaking anything. I think I'll scale the number of steps back to 4, since that would make less work for me (even though some abilities will overlap).

So what we've got:

Crusader: Weapon Focus (god's weapon); Enemy of the Faith (as favored enemy with slightly different skill bonuses, applies to a chosen enemy of the church)

Healer: Chosen target (can choose a living [or undead, for evil healers] creature at the beginning of an encounter; for the duration of that encounter, as long as the creature is within 10 ft./2 levels and the cleric can see it, he can heal it with a healing spell at range); increased healing (cure disease, remove curse, etc. - this ties into a variant disease/poison system); healing burst; and, of course, turn undead.

Priest: Aura of faith (3/day, can create an aura of his alignment axis - good/law/chaos/evil - that grants bonuses to those of similar alignment/faith around him, kind of like a magic circle); turn undead; banish outsider (as turn undead, applied to outsiders); voice of god (not sure what this does exactly - it's a high-level ability that lets the cleric speak with the voice of his god, cowing those around him temporarily and granting those of similar faith bonuses).

 

[Kerrick]

I was thinking this over last night, and I thought, "What if we ditch the Crusader completely?" I had considered it while writing my last post, then dismissed the idea, but it gained more traction with me. We've already got the paladin as holy knight and crusader; clerics as defined in 1E were supposed to "fortify, protect, and revitalize". They had a "limited number of attack spells, some of which are simply the reverse form of curative incantations".

All this leads me to think that maybe I should stick with the Healer and Priest paths only. Drop the HD to d6, as I've said, and armor prof to medium - this will put them firmly into the second rank, where they can easily hold their own with the monk and rogue. Their abilities should give them a chance to shine in certain situations - against undead/outsiders, in situations requiring religious expertise, when (extra) healing is needed, or when you need someone raised from the dead. All the rest of the time, they should be able to mix with the other party members without being left out/left behind because they're not as useful.

I'll pay around with this idea a bit today and see what I can come up with. I think their spell list will need to be tweaked a bit - remove a few things like righteous might, e.g.

 

[Sylrae]

your solution is to take the cleric and make a compromise, and mine is to split it into two classes. I'm dropping paladin, cause I'm not fond of the idea of a good-only PRC, and I figure the battle-priest is close enough to a paladin (if good) that if they want a slightly more fighter emphasis they can multi into fighter. I dont give xp penalties for multiclassing, so the player wont be getting screwed (instead I give a free bonus feat for every 5 levels of the favored class, make them take the favored class via bonus, instead of penalty )

As for a healer cleric, either one could be a healer, they have access to alot of the same spells and domains, the difference is one has the emphasis on physical ability and the other on magic. (depends where the player wants the emphasis)

Priest is a d4 HD, magic based class. they will be more like the original cleric in casting ability, with expanded spell list, a bit more wizard-like in spell damage.

BattlePriest is d8 HD, melee-esque based class. They'll have a lower spell-per day count, and they might not be able to get all the way up to level 9 spells. maybe cap them at 7. Havent quite figured it out or balanced it yet.

and for domains, I was thinking the majority of spells should come from a domain list, and have the smaller number be the general cleric spells. That specializes them.
Obviously this means making new spell lists, but I'm okay with that.

As for the Paladin, if you look at it and dissect it, you'll notice that a blackguard gets abilities mirroring the paladins. but the blackguard levels are condensed into 10 instead of 20. So pull oyut the evil blackguard abilities, substitute the appropriate paladin ability, and you have the Paladin PrC. I havent done an actual writeup because nobody in my games ever even WANTS to play a paladin so its had minimal importance.

For Turn and what not, I dont want to make it domain based, but deity based. which means that which abilities you can get in place of turn/rebuke is dependent on which setting you play and which deities are available.

 

[Kerrick]

your solution is to take the cleric and make a compromise, and mine is to split it into two classes. I'm dropping paladin, cause I'm not fond of the idea of a good-only PRC, and I figure the battle-priest is close enough to a paladin (if good) that if they want a slightly more fighter emphasis they can multi into fighter.

Yeah, I don't like the idea of a good-only base class (PrC is fine - they're focused) either, which is why I expanded the paladin's concept to be a holy knight of any god, good or evil.

I dont give xp penalties for multiclassing, so the player wont be getting screwed (instead I give a free bonus feat for every 5 levels of the favored class, make them take the favored class via bonus, instead of penalty )

Oh god... XP penalties. Stupidest. Rule. Ever. I just ditched the idea of favored classes altogether, because I didn't really see the point.

As for a healer cleric, either one could be a healer, they have access to alot of the same spells and domains, the difference is one has the emphasis on physical ability and the other on magic. (depends where the player wants the emphasis)

I kind of like the idea of a character being able to mix and match abilities - most priests would have at least some healing ability

Priest is a d4 HD, magic based class. they will be more like the original cleric in casting ability, with expanded spell list, a bit more wizard-like in spell damage.

I dunno. If you want to deal lots of damage and have lots of spells, you traditionally go with an arcane caster. Divine casters have never been big on damage dealing.

BattlePriest is d8 HD, melee-esque based class. They'll have a lower spell-per day count, and they might not be able to get all the way up to level 9 spells. maybe cap them at 7. Havent quite figured it out or balanced it yet.

Maybe give them the bard's progression?

and for domains, I was thinking the majority of spells should come from a domain list, and have the smaller number be the general cleric spells. That specializes them.

Obviously this means making new spell lists, but I'm okay with that.

You're thinking like spheres? If you are, check this out. It's a sphere system I did for 3.5, when I was bored and playing around with stuff.

As for the Paladin, if you look at it and dissect it, you'll notice that a blackguard gets abilities mirroring the paladins.

Yeah, it's not very original, which gave me even more incentive to just combine them. Actually.. check out the Divine Champion PrC - that should be exactly what you're looking for.

So pull oyut the evil blackguard abilities, substitute the appropriate paladin ability, and you have the Paladin PrC. I havent done an actual writeup because nobody in my games ever even WANTS to play a paladin so its had minimal importance.

For Turn and what not, I dont want to make it domain based, but deity based. which means that which abilities you can get in place of turn/rebuke is dependent on which setting you play and which deities are available.

That works for individual DMs, but I as a designer can't predict what kind of gods you'll have in your campaign - that's why it's easier simply to say something like "You get turning at x level; if the DM determines that the god wouldn't grant it, then he can assign another ability."

 

[Sylrae]

Yeah, I don't like the idea of a good-only base class (PrC is fine - they're focused) either, which is why I expanded the paladin's concept to be a holy knight of any god, good or evil.

Oh god... XP penalties. Stupidest. Rule. Ever. I just ditched the idea of favored classes altogether, because I didn't really see the point.

I like having small 'gifts' the player can earn. in this case, 1 feat in favored class every 5 levels. for humans that results to 1 feat for every 5 levels of their first class .

I kind of like the idea of a character being able to mix and match abilities - most priests would have at least some healing ability

Yeah, thats the idea, I just dont want to assume they ALL are focused on healing.

I dunno. If you want to deal lots of damage and have lots of spells, you traditionally go with an arcane caster. Divine casters have never been big on damage dealing.

They still wouldnt mainly be damage focused, but they'd be given a few more damage spells.

Maybe give them the bard's progression?

That sounds pretty good.

You're thinking like spheres? If you are, check this out. It's a sphere system I did for 3.5, when I was bored and playing around with stuff.

While the Spheres are pretty cool, I kinda like the Idea of Lolthites having access to spider magic, which I'm not sure I could do If I dropped it to spheres. I was thinking something similar, but I figured I would likely keep 80% of the domains, combine some, expand the spell lists, some spells would be im multiple lists though.

Yeah, it's not very original, which gave me even more incentive to just combine them. Actually.. check out the Divine Champion PrC - that should be exactly what you're looking for.

Yea, it is I figured I would have to get aroudn to building it myself though. now is that in conjunction with the blackguard, or is blackguard removed?

That works for individual DMs, but I as a designer can't predict what kind of gods you'll have in your campaign - that's why it's easier simply to say something like "You get turning at x level; if the DM determines that the god wouldn't grant it, then he can assign another ability."

Well, I figured I would make a few dozen alternate abilities, connect hem to faerun deities, and to greyhawk deities(phb), and then suggest connections to spheres.

If you use a different list of deities, apply as desired. Turn undead would be on the list (though not the standard turn undead)

You know?

I might come up with a quick half-finished class writeup later today.

 

[Kerrick]

I like having small 'gifts' the player can earn. in this case, 1 feat in favored class every 5 levels. for humans that results to 1 feat for every 5 levels of their first class .

That works. Pathfinder grants +1 skill point/level. If you're going to use favored classes, a bonus is much better than a penalty.

Yeah, thats the idea, I just dont want to assume they ALL are focused on healing.

Amen. Clerics should have some healing ability, since that's part of their archetype, but they shouldn't be focused solely on that.

They still wouldnt mainly be damage focused, but they'd be given a few more damage spells.

Ah, I see. It's a tricky balancing act - removing a few buffs and adding a few damage spells sounds like a good idea, but if you go too far in either direction, you either make it underpowered (not enough useful spells), or make it too close to the wizard, which would be way overpowered.

While the Spheres are pretty cool, I kinda like the Idea of Lolthites having access to spider magic, which I'm not sure I could do If I dropped it to spheres. I was thinking something similar, but I figured I would likely keep 80% of the domains, combine some, expand the spell lists, some spells would be im multiple lists though.

Yeah. I realized that the spheres sounded good in theory, but it didn't work so well in practice. I left it up, though, for people who have access to more than just core spells, so they can add their own stuff, or at least mine it for ideas.

Yea, it is I figured I would have to get aroudn to building it myself though. now is that in conjunction with the blackguard, or is blackguard removed?

That is a PrC that can be used for any alignment, blackguard included. The granted powers are designed to be customizable according to the Champion's god (kind of like what I want to do with the priest) - a Blackguard (Champion of an evil god) could get sneak attack, poison use, and summon fiend. A Paladin could have his lay on hands, aura of power, and turn undead.

Well, I figured I would make a few dozen alternate abilities, connect hem to faerun deities, and to greyhawk deities(phb), and then suggest connections to spheres.

That sounds like a lot of work, but if you can do it, more power to you. It's a good idea, though.

 

[Kerrick]

I was thinking about this earlier today, and I realized something - if you give a cleric 1 domain and only the ability to swap spells for domain spells (no healing), it gives them very little spell flexibility. I think we agree that two domains is too much (at least, I'd like to keep it to one at first), so I'm thinking they can swap spells either for domain spells OR healing spells. This fulfills the cleric's archetype as healer/priest. At 10th level, they gain a second domain, and at 20th, a third.

Now, I also realized that granting them domain powers AND granted abilities is overkill. So... we ditch the domain powers and make them into granted abilities. That gives us a ready-made list of powers, all of which will have domains tied to them. You can also make more powerful abilities with level requirements.

For example: We have Sasha, a cleric of Pelor (portfolio: Good, Healing, Strength, Sun). Sasha can choose any of those domains as her first one (we'll say Sun). At L2, she can choose a granted ability tied to the Sun domain. We'll take the greater turning from the Sun domain, since it's not too powerful.

At L6, she can choose another granted ability*. She takes Sunbeam - 1/day, she can create a burst of divine light similar to the sunbeam spell, which can blind a living creature it strikes; if it hits an undead, it deals 1d6/cleric level.

At L10, she goes for the Good domain, and another power - say, smite evil as a paladin 1/day.

*At this point, I'm not sure if I want to allow the PC to choose abilities tied to any valid domain (in Sasha's case, any of the four listed above) whether or not he has access to them, or only the domains that he actually has. I'm leaning toward the former, simply because it allows greater latitude.

The beauty of this system is that we've got a whole laundry list of available powers already - domain powers, class abilities, spells that can be altered... the list goes on. Since clerics should get them at most 1/day, it doesn't make them overpowered, nor can they take the place of any other PC. Sure, a cleric of the god of thieves could get a few rogue class skills, sneak attack +1d6, and maybe a cloak of shadows - but a straight rogue is still better at being a rogue. All this does is help distinguish clerics by their gods and make them feel more like a cleric of XYZ god, instead of a cookie-cutter class with no abilities. Plus, people could create new cleric abilities, further expanding the base pool.

 

[Sylrae]

I was thinking about this earlier today, and I realized something - if you give a cleric 1 domain and only the ability to swap spells for domain spells (no healing), it gives them very little spell flexibility. I think we agree that two domains is too much (at least, I'd like to keep it to one at first), so I'm thinking they can swap spells either for domain spells OR healing spells. This fulfills the cleric's archetype as healer/priest. At 10th level, they gain a second domain, and at 20th, a third.

Now, I also realized that granting them domain powers AND granted abilities is overkill. So... we ditch the domain powers and make them into granted abilities. That gives us a ready-made list of powers, all of which will have domains tied to them. You can also make more powerful abilities with level requirements.

For example: We have Sasha, a cleric of Pelor (portfolio: Good, Healing, Strength, Sun). Sasha can choose any of those domains as her first one (we'll say Sun). At L2, she can choose a granted ability tied to the Sun domain. We'll take the greater turning from the Sun domain, since it's not too powerful.

At L6, she can choose another granted ability*. She takes Sunbeam - 1/day, she can create a burst of divine light similar to the sunbeam spell, which can blind a living creature it strikes; if it hits an undead, it deals 1d6/cleric level.

At L10, she goes for the Good domain, and another power - say, smite evil as a paladin 1/day.

*At this point, I'm not sure if I want to allow the PC to choose abilities tied to any valid domain (in Sasha's case, any of the four listed above) whether or not he has access to them, or only the domains that he actually has. I'm leaning toward the former, simply because it allows greater latitude.

The beauty of this system is that we've got a whole laundry list of available powers already - domain powers, class abilities, spells that can be altered... the list goes on. Since clerics should get them at most 1/day, it doesn't make them overpowered, nor can they take the place of any other PC. Sure, a cleric of the god of thieves could get a few rogue class skills, sneak attack +1d6, and maybe a cloak of shadows - but a straight rogue is still better at being a rogue. All this does is help distinguish clerics by their gods and make them feel more like a cleric of XYZ god, instead of a cookie-cutter class with no abilities. Plus, people could create new cleric abilities, further expanding the base pool.

The abilities are just like I was going to do (Except with the cleric split in half, lol) so I definitely agree with you there, but I dont think its quite enough specialization via spells.

 

[Kerrick]

The abilities are just like I was going to do (Except with the cleric split in half, lol) so I definitely agree with you there, but I dont think its quite enough specialization via spells.

Yeah, the spells are a bit of a problem. I could suggest additions to the spell list based on domain, but that would take up far too much space for a simple character entry. It would be a great idea for a supplement, though.