Revisiting the Elemasters

[MPA2000]

Greetings!

Hi guys I often visit the Wizards.com boards and other Mystara boards and found yours after doing a search on Elemasters. I had brought up a question about why Aaron didn't include them in the WoTI.

Anyway I know that I am new but I had a chance to really look over the hard work that you guys put into trying to convert Frank's Elemasters into D&D 3 (or 3.5?).

Could I pose or point out a couple of things without looking presumptuous?

1) One of you had mentioned early on during the coverting that you were sort of baffled as to why gods had levels limited to only 20, but virtually no limit for the Epic mortals. As you already know all of the ablities and power geared to Epic characters also apply to gods. Second, since god's have divine rankings that should be more than enough to compensate for any lack of levels.

2) In the RC, Aaron had advised against trying to convert gods and immortals between systems, obviously because they aren't compatible as the monsters and characters are. But since you did that leaves me to...

3) I was confused that you did not give the Elemasters divine rank, despite that Hierarchs are equivalent to Greater Gods? Instead you guys turned them into mega-powerful elementals. As a side question: Who are these "Elemental Deities" that you guys refer to as the Elemasters serving? My understand is that the Elemasters are the elemental deities .

4) Finally, sort of in addition to #3, wouldn't Elemasters be outsiders since they exist in the Elemental planes? Also I wouldn't put so much emphasis on HD, since it is common for many non-immortals monsters to have more HD than the immortals. For example: Elemental Rulers could have HD as high as 80, but the max HD for any immortal is 50HD (45HD in Frank's version).

I just thought that I would through that out there.

 

[Cleon]

Well I can't speak for the others, but regarding some of your questions.

3) I was confused that you did not give the Elemasters divine rank, despite that Hierarchs are equivalent to Greater Gods? Instead you guys turned them into mega-powerful elementals.

Actually, we gave them all Divine Rank 2.

Special Qualities: Block sensing, create magic items, damage reduction 15/epic (10/-), darkvision 60 ft., divine aura, divine rank 2, elemental traits, immunity to fire, portfolio sense, remote sensing, spell resistance 34, vulnerability to cold

As a side question: Who are these "Elemental Deities" that you guys refer to as the Elemasters serving? My understand is that the Elemasters are the elemental deities.

If I remember correctly, that's a reference to the Immortals handbook saying the Elemaster hierarchs are the masters of the elementals, but are subservient to higher-ranked elemental gods.

4) Finally, sort of in addition to #3, wouldn't Elemasters be outsiders since they exist in the Elemental planes? Also I wouldn't put so much emphasis on HD, since it is common for many non-immortals monsters to have more HD than the immortals. For example: Elemental Rulers could have HD as high as 80, but the max HD for any immortal is 50HD (45HD in Frank's version).

Well, elementals live on the Elemental planes and they're not Outsiders.

I wouldn't worry about the RC max HD for Immortals. Consider it more a suggestion than an ironclad rule.

 

[MPA2000]

Well I can't speak for the others, but regarding some of your questions.



Actually, we gave them all Divine Rank 2.

I see. Just curious why did you guys decide such a low ranking when the Elemasters are Hierarchs? They should be At least Divine 16 or 17.

Eternals and Hierarchs are all equivalent to Greater Gods. Full Hierarchs should always be Divine 20.

If I remember correctly, that's a reference to the Immortals handbook saying the Elemaster hierarchs are the masters of the elementals, but are subservient to higher-ranked elemental gods.

No, that is not what it says in Franks DM Guide for the Immortals.
Here is the exact quote:

Description: The elemasters are high-ranking aides who directly
serve the Full Hierarchs of the Spheres. They represent and rule all of
the elementals of the multiverse.

The Full Hiearchs for each sphere (Energy, Matter, Thought, Time and Entropy) are not elementals.

Well, elementals live on the Elemental planes and they're not Outsiders.

If I could add a couple of corrections here...? Yes elementals live on the Elemental planes, but Elemasters are no longer elementals (just as mortals are no longer mortals when they achieve immortality/godhood). They are immortals. They are outsiders who make their residence in the Elemental Planes, just like some Deities make their home on the Material Plane. Where they live doesn't change the nature of their being.

I wouldn't worry about the RC max HD for Immortals. Consider it more a suggestion than an ironclad rule.

The RC didn't discuss Immortal's HD, as that was beyond the scope for the RC. The HD max were in Frank's Immortal Rules (45HD) and the later revised rules of Aaron's WoTI (50HD).

I have disagree about the liberal interpretation of the HD limits of the immortals. They are limited to 36 levels, just as mortals are. For immortals 1 level=14 HD, thus a 36th level immortal has 50HD.

Just as mortals, per RC, I am sure that Immortals could continue to earn PP well beyond the 16,000, just no further levels.

Yes an Elemaster who is limited to 42HD, rules over Elemental Rulers with nearly twice as many HD as themselves.

So anyway, I think that you guys put a lot of work into the conversions.

 

[Cleon]

I see. Just curious why did you guys decide such a low ranking when the Elemasters are Hierarchs? They should be At least Divine 16 or 17.

If I remember correctly, the Immortals Set gave Elemasters the lowest divine rank available in the system (0 or 1), and we decided to give them a promotion with 2.

 

[MPA2000]

If I remember correctly, the Immortals Set gave Elemasters the lowest divine rank available in the system (0 or 1), and we decided to give them a promotion with 2.

I am sorry to say that you indeed remembered incorrectly. Elemasters were given lowest Hierarch rank in Frank's set.

You guys had posted their stats previously, I will do so again:
Elemaster
Sphere: Element equivalent
Status: Hierarch 2
Power Points: 12,000
Anti-Magic: 90%
Armor Class: -18
Hit Dice: 43
Move: As Immortal
Attacks: 4 fist strikes
Damage: Up to 100 (each)
No. Appearing: 1 (unique)
Save As: Hierarch 2
Morale: Special
Treasure Type: Special
Alignment: Neutral
XP Value: 9,539,250 (953 PP)

From the link from your own work: http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...verting-epic-level-creatures.html#post5409088

 

[Cleon]

I am sorry to say that you indeed remembered incorrectly. Elemasters were given lowest Hierarch rank in Frank's set.

Maybe we got it mixed up somewhere, then. I definitely recall some flavour about them serving more powerful gods.

In principal I have no objection to a higher divine rank, but you'd have to persuade Shade to change it.

 

[MPA2000]

Maybe we got it mixed up somewhere, then. I definitely recall some flavour about them serving more powerful gods.

Actually here is the excerpt: Description: The elemasters are high-ranking aides who directly serve the Full Hierarchs of the Spheres. They (The Elemasters) represent and rule all of the elementals of the multiverse.

There are no gods in Mystara. The difference between a Full Hierarch and an Elemaster, is probably the difference between DR 20 and DR18. All Eternals and Hierarchs are "Greater Powers" according to WoTI.

In principal I have no objection to a higher divine rank, but you'd have to persuade Shade to change it.

Nah, I am not here to persuade anyone one way or the other. I thought it would be helpful to give you guys the actual information, even though you had it posted but still decided to go by memory.

 

[Cleon]

Actually here is the excerpt: Description: The elemasters are high-ranking aides who directly serve the Full Hierarchs of the Spheres. They (The Elemasters) represent and rule all of the elementals of the multiverse.

There are no gods in Mystara. The difference between a Full Hierarch and an Elemaster, is probably the difference between DR 20 and DR18. All Eternals and Hierarchs are "Greater Powers" according to WoTI.

I guess we focused too much on the "aides" and not enough on the "high-ranking".

Whether they call the Immortals gods or not in Mystatra seems neither here nor there as far as the conversion went.

 

[MPA2000]

Well, if Shade likes, I'm ok with reopening the elemasters.

I sent a PM to Shade, but I haven't got a response that I am aware of?

In my opinion: Immortals and Deities should not be converted between the two game systems (ie D&D vs AD&D1ed, 2ed, 3rd etc.). Aaron made that request in the RC, and I see why.

 

[Shade]

Let's keep our elemasters as the "lesser aides", and work on the greater elemasters as the "high-ranking" ones. Or we can just choose to NOT conver the high-ranking ones, and put a note in the flavor text of our conversion that such beings exist, but are greater deities and probably beyond stats in most cases.

Thoughts?