[revolution] Exactly WHY is d20 so great, comparing?

[Storm Gorm]

I dont think its great, just to sort that out right away.

I think its too rule-heavy, and too based on numbers, and me being Norwegian, i would like something that could have more loose conceptual grammar, so that I could more easily translate it all (to get better verbal flow of a game).

There are of course several other things i could go on and complain about, but my point is that i begin to believe that ive missed something, that its ME that is all wrong, and not d20, 'course everyone else i know thinks otherwise.

So i ask you experienced roleplayers if you can pinpoint the strengths of d20, comparing to other systems? (please use DnD in particular, since i have my own experience limited to this) I think d20 mechanics does roleplaying a "bear favor", as it is called in norwegian, that is; a favor thats doing the opposite of helping, that d20 is getting in the way of DnD being a good roleplaying game. At what turn did i go wrong?

Ive considered using the FUDGE mechanics to make a better system for my group, but first i need to test my arguments.

Good night,
Gorm

 

[Desdichado]

How exactly do rules get in the way of roleplaying? I see that tossed around quite a bit, but I have yet to have any explain it to me in a way that makes any sense. Also, compared to what systems does d20 have more rules? Certainly not GURPS, for instance.

I also think your answer is simpler than you think; you don't like d20 because it isn't to your taste. Trying to qualitatively compare systems is a pointless excercise, IMO.

 

[Luddite]

Well the "Greatness" of a system is what you make of it. First you must define what is the Platonic Ideal of a Great Roleplaying system. Get Everyone to agree on that Platonic Ideal, and the rest is a cake walk.

Defining thata Platonic Ideal is the hard part.

d20 and DnD are a simple system. I can tell a novice gamer that you roll a d20, add your "skill" and try to get a large number. A player does not realy need to know how the skill modifier is computed. Of course the more the player knows about the different stats and skills, the better they can intuit the limits of their character, but they always know, roll high

Character creation is no worse then most modern RPGs. And it is detailed enought that you can be creative.

With that in mind. With that in mind, the "greatness" of a game is meaningless if you don't like it. And I would never pursume DnD an d d20 to be the holy grail of RPGs. There are things it does well, and things that it does not do well.

As for "Roleplaying." It is what you make of it. The rules of any system only tell you what can be done. Roleplaying is about "How" you do something

-The Luddite

 

[trancejeremy]

Well, first of all, in all role-playing games, it's very easy to simply ignore rules you don't like. At it's very simplest, I think d20 is an improved version of Chaosium's BRP.

Secondly, the best thing about d20, is not the system, but the license which lets other companies make stuff for it.

I think d20/3e is the best edition of AD&D/D&D, because it utilizes the same basic skill system for almost everything. I absolutely hated the skill system in early versions, in which to use a skill sucessfully, you rolled under the related stat on a d20. Or sometimes rolled % dice (if you were a Thief).

I'm not crazy about the combat system, or weapon sizes.

 

[Vigilance]

How exactly do rules get in the way of roleplaying? I see that tossed around quite a bit, but I have yet to have any explain it to me in a way that makes any sense. Also, compared to what systems does d20 have more rules? Certainly not GURPS, for instance.

I also think your answer is simpler than you think; you don't like d20 because it isn't to your taste. Trying to qualitatively compare systems is a pointless excercise, IMO.

I agree totally here. D20 is less rules heavy than GURPS, Hero, FASA, Coda (Yes I know Coda is art- greatest system ever- I ackowledge its utter greatness).

So Im not sure what you mean by rules heavy.

Chuck

 

[Victim]

First of all, I'm curious as to why a verbal based game would translate better than numerical mechanics. I mean, numbers don't need any translating, right?

Second, it could be that neither you or d20 is wrong. Different people have different tastes. Just because I don't like rap music, Chinese food, or rules light games doesn't mean that those are bad. It just means that I don't like them. Fudge might be a better system FOR YOUR GROUP, or it might not. But I don't really know what your group's preferences are.

The rules heavy nature of d20 is its strength too. It provides a framework for consistent results and rulings. It's usually pretty easy to figure out an action's results from the rules. So it's generally possible for a player who knows the rules to understand what will happen if they try X. Therefore, players can make well informed, and thus more meaningful decisions.

 

[Tarrasque Wrangler]

As has been said, I think the greatest thing about the D20 system is the OGL. No longer do I need to memorize the ins and outs of a dozen different systems if I want to play a sci-fi, a western, a superhero, a horror, or a fantasy game tonight. Not that it does everything perfectly for each of those settings, but it gets the job done. It's the old Toyota pick-up truck of RPG systems. It's an ugly old beater, but it still gets mileage like you wouldn't believe.

That said, I also admire the elegance of the system. What you have to remember is, WotC didn't just pull the D20 mechanic out of a hat. Many of the rules that made it into the 3rd Edition were house rules ordinary players and DMs had been using for years on their own. When people took a first look at it, many said to themselves, "Of course. This is the way it always should have been." Everyone except Diaglo, obviously .

I like how easy it is to teach to new players. I like that I don't need to consult arcane charts and graphs to figure out how hard it is to tie a knot. I like that high is always good, and low is always bad.

Is it the greatest system ever? No. Is it the last system I ever want to learn? No. Will it do just fine in the meantime? Absolutely.

 

[Lugh]

To me, d20 has several advantages.

It is a flexible toolbox of options. It is very easy to add or subtract rulesets without upsetting the fabric of the game. You want psionics? Create a set of feats, skills, and powers. Maybe a class or two. Boom, you've got your system. Drop it into your game. As long as it's reasonably balanced (e.g., not simply more powerful than magic), it doesn't ripple significantly across the rest of the rules. A player doesn't HAVE to take psionics into account when designing a character. You don't want magic? Yank it. Check feats and class abilities to see which ones assume that magic is there, and either yank those or tweak them.

It's a set of very simple mechanics. Roll a d20, add your bonus, roll over the DC. Movement is calculated in 5' increments. As your character gains experience, you add on skill points, feats, and class abilities to expand their options. Unlike some systems out there, you do not need a calculator, protractor, and set of charts to determine the outcome of your action. Everything has been rounded off for simplicity.

You can build any character you can think of. As d20 matures, this becomes more and more the case. But, with open multiclassing, feats, and a pretty robust skill list, you can achieve just about any concept with relative ease. And, characters are different. One of my biggest problems with 2nd Ed. was that any two 9th level fighters were pretty much the same, mechanically. Now, you can build two different 9th level fighters that are radically different, on every level, but still both fighters.

The language is precise. You don't have to guess whether or not a given monster is of a fire subtype. You don't have to negotiate with your DM about bonuses stacking. You don't get taken by surprise when an ability suddenly doesn't apply to a situation you thought it would (well, assuming you pay attention).

As many people have noted, it's an open license, and an open system. GURPS did a great thing for the industry in demonstrating how a single system can be used across a wide variety of genres. d20 takes it a step further. Now, not only can you apply it to pretty much any genre, but any publisher with a cool idea can develop and market that idea without also having to convince people to change systems.

Does d20 have limitations? Certainly. The class/level system assumes that characters are supposed to get better in a fairly linear fashion. That doesn't work as well for systems in which characters should start powerful, and advancement should be minimal (I point to the superhero genre as the obvious example, despite a number of excellent d20 superhero products). The system tends to encourage min-maxing (although I strongly disagree with the sentiment that it discourages role-playing, but that's another rant). Players have a tendency to feel that if there is a feat called Do A Really Cool Thing, then they can't do a really cool thing without that feat (not the case, but again that's another rant). And, the entire system does tend to encourage results over description, but a good DM who is aware of that can counter that tendency.

First of all, I'm curious as to why a verbal based game would translate better than numerical mechanics. I mean, numbers don't need any translating, right?

The problem is not a numbers-heavy vs. verbal-heavy. The problem is that one of the features of d20 (and one of its big selling points, to me), is that it uses very precise language. But, that language is somewhat artificial. The best instance is named bonuses. I know that armor gives an "armor bonus." I know that if I see a spell that says it gives an "armor bonus," it does not stack. If it says it gives a "deflection bonus," it does stack. There is no need for interpretation or discussion among the group as to whether or not Mage Armor is redundant with leather armor. It's laid out, precisely. However, because the language is somewhat artificial, translation can be tricky.

 

[Henry]

There are of course several other things i could go on and complain about, but my point is that i begin to believe that ive missed something, that its ME that is all wrong, and not d20, 'course everyone else i know thinks otherwise.

You're not "wrong," you just have different tastes.

I dislike Football (both American and European). Millions upon MILLIONS of people love football, have SuperBowl parties for the last game of the season, they talk statistics, participate in football pools for money, and so on.

I hate it, and Football bores me to tears. Is there something wrong with me? Not really. Just dislike football.

Same with you and d20.

So i ask you experienced roleplayers if you can pinpoint the strengths of d20, comparing to other systems? (please use DnD in particular, since i have my own experience limited to this) I think d20 mechanics does roleplaying a "bear favor", as it is called in norwegian, that is; a favor thats doing the opposite of helping, that d20 is getting in the way of DnD being a good roleplaying game. At what turn did i go wrong?

The two biggest strengths of d20 are:

1) Consistent mechanics. Unlike many systems, all d20 systems have unified mechanics that seek a result in the same way; you roll a d20, add conditional modifiers, and the higher the result, the better. This concept is not new, but it is strongly implemented across the entire product, and rarely does it deviate.

2) The OGL and the d20 Trademark License. Without these, three years ago, D&D 3E would have been just another proprietary system, developed only in-house, and the buzz would not be anywhere near what it is today.

Please note that these are two different licenses, and many people I have seen make this mistake. (I do not mean to imply you do not understand them, but I want to be sure the point is made.) The point of the OGL is to allow MANY other designers use the system for their own purposes, and thereby let natural competetition drive the improvement of game systems. With the OGL, someone who wishes to devise a game with an all-new magic system does not have to also devise all-new rules for character creation, combat, equipment, etc.

The biggest advantage is that my favorite designers get to still work on my favorite game system and make a profit. Without the OGL, people like Monte Cook, Chris Pramas, Skip Williams, top-name RPG talent, would be forced to either work elsewhere, or quit working on RPG's altogether.

The consistent mechanics, combined with the Open Gaming License, is what sells d20 to so many gamers.

Ive considered using the FUDGE mechanics to make a better system for my group, but first i need to test my arguments.

If FUDGE works better for your gaming needs, then you would do well to pick it up.

Good luck with it!

 

[Storm Gorm]

The rules of any system only tell you what can be done. Roleplaying is about "How" you do something
-The Luddite

I must beg to differ! I would say that a system is there to serve as a simplification of reality, but its only reality itself that should be able to tell me what CAN be done! Roleplaying is not about "how" you work your way around a framework of rules! I dont think that thats what you meant - i might be twisting your words - but its a horrid thought.

Thank you. This is a great point, and it sums up one of my most urgent objections to d20 DnD.