Rituals and trained skills

[Gargoyle]

Yeah the skill check will be a problem in some cases (and yes anyone can use any skill, but the fighter will probably have a -1 on his check vs. the level 1 cleric with a 9 or an 11 so he will will have a slim chance of knowing something no one else does.). Raise dead is a little weird but if it really is a ritual and not a prayer to a particular god then a smart wizard should be able to muddle through it I guess, maybe they come back missing a finger or with one undead leg or something?

Many rituals don't require a successful skill check for the ritual to function. Some use the skill check to determine the degree of success (like Animal Messenger) and some don't have a check at all (Gentle Repose, Make Whole), and some do require a skill check for it to work (Detect Secret Doors, Passwall). There is no check for Raise Dead, it just works.

 

[Surgoshan]

Not to derail the conversation, but does that there are no longer trained-only skills? I can see that getting a little silly, where even the dumbest fighter-type can point out that this is INDEED the holy symbol of Dugong, whose religion died out thousands of years ago.

Also, I heard you can find rituals on scolls. If that's true, do they require the feat, training in the skill, or both/neither?

I've not seen anything about trained only skills.

However, I don't see why your fighter* would be able to know an obscure fact about a long dead cult. Sounds to me like that would be a high DC. Low level, untrained, no Int bonus, your fighter probably won't make it. Low level, trained, no Int bonus, your cleric might know it.

Your 20th level fighter, on the other hand, has been around the block and has a decent chance to have heard a tidbit on the cult, but won't make the more difficult DC to know a lot about it. He'll just know "Oh, ya, I hurd thut thur wur a cult like way back. Dey kilt people wit stiks."

* And not all fighters are dumb, buddy!

 

[Antoine]

You could house rule that you must pick a specialty with the ritual feat.

Or you could just house rule that you can't use a ritual if you're untrained in its key skill.

Which would make [common] sense !

 

[Abelisk]

Not to derail the conversation, but does that there are no longer trained-only skills? I can see that getting a little silly, where even the dumbest fighter-type can point out that this is INDEED the holy symbol of Dugong, whose religion died out thousands of years ago.

Also, I heard you can find rituals on scolls. If that's true, do they require the feat, training in the skill, or both/neither?

If the religion of Dugong died thousands of years ago, then it most certainly means that it's in the realm of expert knowledge. Raise the DC to something appropriate when dealing with characters trying to do a knowledge check in an untrained skill. That should circumvent players getting lucky with dice and accessing knowledge that they realistically shouldn't possess.

My thoughts anyway.

 

[Mad Hamish]

Not to derail the conversation, but does that there are no longer trained-only skills? I can see that getting a little silly, where even the dumbest fighter-type can point out that this is INDEED the holy symbol of Dugong, whose religion died out thousands of years ago.

That's where the DC for the knowledge check comes in.
If you've got specialised knowledge for an obscure, extinct cult then the DC will be much higher than knowing that the person waving around the sun holy symbol is probably a worshiper of <generic sun god #23>

and as other people have stated there are particular applications of skills that can't be used untrained.

So anybody has a chance of recognising an obvious low level magical effect but probably only the party wizard would have a chance of detecting a magical aura.

And, of course, many things can be house ruled as trained only.

 

[DracoSuave]

With regard to skills and rituals:

The skill for a ritual determines the kind of reagents necessary to use it. Some rituals require a skill roll, but the more important consideration is for your reagent budget.

Training in the skill is not required, but it is recommended if you're taking rituals that require skill checks.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Not to derail the conversation, but does that there are no longer trained-only skills? I can see that getting a little silly, where even the dumbest fighter-type can point out that this is INDEED the holy symbol of Dugong, whose religion died out thousands of years ago.

If he succeeds on the roll when the cleric fails on it, then the description is "hey, that kinda looks like the pretty picture in one of your picture books, <cleric>".

You only really hit problems when no member of the party ever meets someone who is a historian or religious (which is a pretty unique situation). Otherwise you can just say "yeah, this one time in a market you asked someone how much for a sword, and he said it was a dugong relic so it was worth 10x normal".

Also, I heard you can find rituals on scolls. If that's true, do they require the feat, training in the skill, or both/neither?

I believe they require the feat, and everything else (except for casting time and material expenditure) is identical to casting it yourself.