Rogue Mastermind Archetype Up, Courtesy of Extra Life

They stole my my help as a bonus action idea...

 

[TwoSix]

Actually I've definitely seen complaints about bless. What is too strong at level three: being able to grant attacks that automatically have advantage and being able to do it from range with superiority dice. That while also being able to heal like a cleric, use bardic inspiration style dice to hand out hanging attack and defense bonuses for exactly when they would be useful. All while having the best armor and weapon proficiencies in the game and a mid range hit die and a heafty skill capability. Fom there the most regular suggestion is to meld the superiority dice and the inspiration dice. That doesn't actually take any capability away, it just makes the tracking easier by taking two dice pools and turning them into one. Ooh and it also makes it so you'd never actually use the inspiration features because the smart way to play would be to always hold the dice for superiority style usage because they are the obvious better choice in most situations. Since if left hanging on an ally you can't use them to hand out an attack without wasting the one you had hanging on an ally.

Gosh, than maybe you shouldn't hand out a feature that takes the entire function of three different classes and staple it together into a Frankenclass.

It's supremely easy to be the person who figures out what doesn't work. Why don't you try harder to make it work?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Based on what benchmark? What filter are you using to devalue it? What comparisons (to other 5e classes) are you making to judge it falling short as representative?

well in 4e I would compare a cleric to a warlord... so when I compare a 5e cleric to a 5e battle master I see WAY more offensive power on the BM and WAY less (almost non exssistant) buffing and healing... and the only feature that lets you grant an attack (Commander strike) is very lmited...

 

[Aldarc]

How about this: Tell me what the warlord should be able to do. Itemized and in black-and-white. Break it down. I'll let you know when you've hit the "warlord fans want everything" benchmark.

To be fair, that is exactly what we have been going over for the past few pages. I suggested a 12th level build that encapsulates what people want (admittedly with a little extra, but that extra actually goes to accomplishing the what I want to be able to do as a warlord type character) and the near immediate answers were basically 'I want to be able to do all those things at level 3', and 'I want to be able to do all of those things like that but a little weaker at level 3' (granting attacks and advantage to attacks don't have weaker incarnations within the design scope of this edition).

Actually I've definitely seen complaints about bless. What is too strong at level three: being able to grant attacks that automatically have advantage and being able to do it from range with superiority dice. That while also being able to heal like a cleric, use bardic inspiration style dice to hand out hanging attack and defense bonuses for exactly when they would be useful. All while having the best armor and weapon proficiencies in the game and a mid range hit die and a heafty skill capability. Fom there the most regular suggestion is to meld the superiority dice and the inspiration dice. That doesn't actually take any capability away, it just makes the tracking easier by taking two dice pools and turning them into one. Ooh and it also makes it so you'd never actually use the inspiration features because the smart way to play would be to always hold the dice for superiority style usage because they are the obvious better choice in most situations. Since if left hanging on an ally you can't use them to hand out an attack without wasting the one you had hanging on an ally.

For the sake of this thread, I hope you don't mind if I move this conversation to the Inspirational Healing thread, which is probably where the warlord discussions should be happening.

 

[ChrisCarlson]

well in 4e I would compare a cleric to a warlord... so when I compare a 5e cleric to a 5e battle master I see WAY more offensive power on the BM and WAY less (almost non exssistant) buffing and healing... and the only feature that lets you grant an attack (Commander strike) is very lmited...

Ya know, I keep getting yelled at for pointing out that 4e baggage is the hang-up here. Then posts like this happen.

It's been driven into the ground repeatedly, so I'll just Cliff Notes(TM) it. If the 5e warlord looked like the 5e cleric, we'd have a serious problem. In 4e roles were used to assign similar functions and abilities (cleric and warlords were built on similar chasis such that that was the way 4e was designed). This ain't 4e. We don't have that here. The 5e warlord shouldn't (and doesn't) look like a cleric. At all. Just like a 5e warlord build (using battlemaster) won't look like a BM fighter focusing on different maneuvers, feats and/or stat increase choices.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Ya know, I keep getting yelled at for pointing out that 4e baggage is the hang-up here. Then posts like this happen.

Because you asked for a bench mark... so I had to refrence the ONLY edition it was in prior...

It's been driven into the ground repeatedly, so I'll just Cliff Notes(TM)

if it's been driven into the ground you should drop it...

If the 5e warlord looked like the 5e cleric, we'd have a serious problem.

if it was just a refluffed/reskinned cleric I agree...

In 4e roles were used to assign similar functions and abilities

and in 2e and 3e and 5e the roles just had different amount of lime light and different interpretations... since 'leader' is a loaded term around here I will use 'healer/buffer/aider' to describe the warlord role...

(cleric and warlords were built on similar chasis such that that was the way 4e was designed).

especially phb1 classes this is very true, and in general my opionon is that 4e played it way too safe in that regard...

This ain't 4e. We don't have that here.

right they took some from every edition and made a good edition (not perfect by a long shot)

The 5e warlord shouldn't (and doesn't) look like a cleric.

there is no 5e warlord there is a 5e fighter built on the 5e fighter chasis that focuses primarily on beign a front line dpr damage tank... it can pick up a small number of grant attacks per day and the ability to grant some temps if you mix and match it with the bard you get kinda close at high level to the basic warlord... now with this new roge master mind you can get closer still but you still are built on the fighter...or the fighter/rogue/bard

Just like a 5e warlord build (using battlemaster) won't look like a BM fighter focusing on different maneuvers, feats and/or stat increase choices.

except he will look ALOT like another battlemaster, or for that matter an eldritch knight or champion... all of them (if you make say 12 20th level fighters 4 of each subclass) will have 4 attacks per round, action surge to do it again twice per short rest they can action surge, once per short rest they can second wind, they all have indomnatable...

now those 4 battle master fighters all have 8 manuvers and 6d12 dice (that there prime function is to add damage) and when they roll initative if you have none you regain 1...

there are 16 manuvers to learn so each of your 4 have a lot of overlap...

the ones that are most warlord like: Commander strike, Distracting strike, Maneuvering attack, and rally are all great starts, but again half of them add your die to your own damage... making it as much a self buff as an ally

 

[Pauln6]

Does it need to be a class or could it be a prestige class that could be layered onto a battlemaster, valour bard, or mastermind rogue? I have given no thought to how one would do this, I just wondered.

 

[ChrisCarlson]

except he will look ALOT like another battlemaster, or for that matter an eldritch knight or champion...

My considerable experience runs counter to your statement. Considerably so. Now what?

all of them (if you make say 12 20th level fighters 4 of each subclass) will have 4 attacks per round, action surge to do it again twice per short rest they can action surge, once per short rest they can second wind, they all have indomnatable...

Why are you assuming there will be 12 fighters in a game together. 20th level ones, no less. That is extremely odd.

now those 4 battle master fighters all have 8 manuvers and 6d12 dice (that there prime function is to add damage) and when they roll initative if you have none you regain 1...

there are 16 manuvers to learn so each of your 4 have a lot of overlap...

Sure. Still a completely irrelevant example considering it's not ever going to happen.

the ones that are most warlord like: Commander strike, Distracting strike, Maneuvering attack, and rally are all great starts, but again half of them add your die to your own damage... making it as much a self buff as an ally

Sounds like a feature not a bug.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

My considerable experience runs counter to your statement. Considerably so. Now what?


Why are you assuming there will be 12 fighters in a game together. 20th level ones, no less. That is extremely odd.


Sure. Still a completely irrelevant example considering it's not ever going to happen.


Sounds like a feature not a bug.

this entire part of the thread started with you saying two battle master fighters look different... then you said 2 fighters wouldn't be in the same party, but your experience with multi fighters is different... could you please either reread the thread or reexplain because I am totally lost on what you are saying now...

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Does it need to be a class or could it be a prestige class that could be layered onto a battlemaster, valour bard, or mastermind rogue? I have given no thought to how one would do this, I just wondered.

actually my new hope is a prestige class meant to be taken at 5th level that could give the warlord abilities... it would be far from perfect but it would be much better then we have now (unless they mess it up...)

 

[ChrisCarlson]

this entire part of the thread started with you saying two battle master fighters look different... then you said 2 fighters wouldn't be in the same party, but your experience with multi fighters is different... could you please either reread the thread or reexplain because I am totally lost on what you are saying now...

By your own math, two 20th level BMFs can have entirely different maneuvers with zero overlap (16 maneuvers, they each have 8). You just proved that yourself. So my point stands.