Rogue Sneak Attacks

[Ralts Bloodthorne]

Honestly?

Tell both players that you'll accept it, but it's on "probation" to see how it works out.

If you let them know, up front, that you'll be watching the character closely, the players usually take it easy.

Forcing a change can be unpleasant for a player (I'm in a campaign where me, as a player, am not allowed to have any tactically minded PC's) and not allow them to really "stretch thier mental wings" so to speak.

Yeah, they can tumble in and flank a target, get one sneak attack in...

Then all of that guy's buddies chop him to kibble. Or the rogue on the bad guys side now has a sneak attack against the PC rogue.

Don't sweat it until you see them in action for awhile.

 

[Psychic Warrior]

Honestly?

Tell both players that you'll accept it, but it's on "probation" to see how it works out.

If you let them know, up front, that you'll be watching the character closely, the players usually take it easy.

Forcing a change can be unpleasant for a player (I'm in a campaign where me, as a player, am not allowed to have any tactically minded PC's) and not allow them to really "stretch thier mental wings" so to speak.

Yeah, they can tumble in and flank a target, get one sneak attack in...

Then all of that guy's buddies chop him to kibble. Or the rogue on the bad guys side now has a sneak attack against the PC rogue.

Don't sweat it until you see them in action for awhile.

This is, almost word for word, what i wanted to post. I take on many things on a trial basis. I rarely change anything midstream since my players knwo I'll be watching closely how the rule/PC power/whatever works out. Usually everyone can come to a consensus that 'X' isn't enchancing the game and agree to change it.

To the specific problem mentioned (leaving out the crazy stuff about 32 Strength damage dealing PCs) I have neve rhad sneak attack be that much of a game breaker. And this is with a Fighter/Rogue (or three) in the party with max ranks in tumble and bluff (for feinting). Generally the pc (when the DM uses a small amount of tactics) leaves himself so exposed to get that snaeak attack off that he is in danger of being killed ina single round by the enemy. Fighting large single foes the Rogue does well but those foes often have tons of hp and/or DR so the extra sneak attack damage allow those rogue to just keep even with the bastard sword weilding power attacker.

 

[airwalkrr]

Well, Syntallah, if you're going to allow gestalt characters, you should be expecting to see some power-builds. Quite frankly, if you are setting them up for a challenging campaign that requires them to be gestalt characters, then they are going to need all the help they can get.

Honestly, the sneak attack is not a problem. Think about what the Rogue would be without it. Would anyone even consider the class if didn't have sneak attack? Chances are highly unlikely. At the very least the number of people playing Rogues would drop substantially. Characters capable of picking up one level of Rogue so they can find traps would probably be the most common Rogue characters.

Players who play Rogues in 3rd edition already feel limited for the most part. I've found that many players consider it one of the weakest classes, despite being the only class (in the core rules) that can effectively find and disable traps. The class is not weak however. I would rank it as one of the top 4 most powerful classes. The problem is, the class is very difficult to play properly. You can't hog glory in a melee like a Fighter can because you can't take hits like he can. You can't be as good of an archer as the Ranger because he gets bonus feats which help him develop his archery and a better base attack bonus. For these reasons, players who focus on the combat side of the game will often discard the Rogue as a viable option. Most players of 3rd edition like to focus on the tactical side of D&D. There's nothing wrong with it of course. It's just a cause for the perception.

Rogues are designed to have a multiplicity of talents. They are supposed to have a trick for every puzzle, good reflexes in dangerous situations (high Reflex and trap sense), and versatility in a variety of terrain types (Balance, Climb, Jump, Swim, Tumble skills in class to name a few and the skill points to invest in them). They do all of this well, but unless the player is really into role-playing, sneaking around, and scouting and spying, the Rogue class would never be any fun. Besides all that, sneaky characters like the Rogue ought to have some mechanic that allows them to strike at opportune moments, when the opponent's back is turned or he's caught flat-footed. So the ability not only gives the class a bit of much-needed power in a fight, but also makes perfect sense for the archetype.

Sneak attack is not a problem for game balance. As many people have already pointed out, Fighters and Barbarians will consistently deal more damage than the Rogue. A two-handed weapon-wielding Fighter or Barbarian can routinely hit bad guys with massive damage (50+ hp in a single hit) starting at around 10th-level whenever they critically hit. Rogues are hard-pressed to come up with that kind of damage.

 

[johnsemlak]

Can someone also explain the cleave/whirlwindattack/bag of rats things as well? I've heard of this loophool several times but don't understand how it works

 

[Kurotowa]

Can someone also explain the cleave/whirlwindattack/bag of rats things as well? I've heard of this loophool several times but don't understand how it works

Are your books 3.5? They eliminated the trick in the switch from 3.0 rules.

It used to be you could combine Great Cleave and Whirlwind Attack. The trick was to run up to the BBEG and drop a bag of a dozen rats. You Whirldwind Attack attacking all the rats and killing each one, each dead rat grants you a Cleave on the BBEG, the result is a quick and easy 13 attacks on one target at full BAB in one round.

 

[Remathilis]

Can anybody give me some input as to the game balance of sneak attack damage applying to every hit in the attack sequence? I'm about to start a campaign with a PC rogue and a soulknife as two of the four characters. Both are going to have the Tumble skill, and will be flanking opponents constantly. I am a little apprehensive about the massive damage totals from the rogue every round...

I'll prefix this with "anyone allowing gestalt PCs gets what he/she deserves"

That said... Weaknesses to exploit or reason said PC won't be great for long...

d8 HD. Not great vs. long combats. Couple rounds vs trolls, giants, or high damage monsters and the PC will start hurting...

Both classes are restricted to light armor. AC should be lower than true melee warriors. Again, strong monsters should bust that AC like nothing. If the PC invests heavy in defense, he loses in other areas (skills, offense)

You need to flank or catch flat-footed. Not always easy to do. Swarms of critters, Uncanny Dodge, Fortifcation, and immune critters are all fair game.

To get a full attack, you can't move more than 5 feet. Monster multiple attacks outstrip PC multiple attacks. Open a can of whoop on that free, open target.

Alternately, very mobile monsters can avoid the PC and cause him to run around the room.

Sneak Attack does not apply to tertiary attacks (bite attacks, etc) So that final hit is never a SA.

Lots of monsters have DR. Use them. 10 or 15 off each SA makes that more bearable at higher levels. Same goes with Regeneration.

He's gonna have a poor will save. Skip the NPC wizard fireball and go for dominate person. Then turn the ginzu-of-death on his friends...

Personally, I'd worry more about a sorcerer/monk, a paladin/cleric, or if your ranger/rogue realizes its cheaper, easier, and more survivable to skip the TWF and go Archery...

 

[Vocenoctum]

THere are other tricks a DM has besides just esculating the power curve. and these examples were for a single character the power level of the other characters was never discussed here so they could be on the same level. It is possible for the characters to be out of sync and fitr the game. D&D does now have this idea of balance but others games and other editions didn't and they worked.

I'm not saying that the Ranger-Rogue in question is by any means deserving of banning outright, it's a Gestalt campaign and that system is almost designed for abuse, which is fine for itself.

What I'm saying is, if you have a PC that is abusively overpowered compared to other PC's, telling that player to make something else isn't only the easiest option, it's the best option if the other alternative is to try to counter his antics over the course of gameplay. Asking one player to move on to the next character idea, or simply redo the idea as something less abusive, is a lot better for the game than 40 hours of gameplay trying to figure out how to deal with him.

No one's saying ban every competent build, but it definetly is an option to ban a character before gameplay. It's not a simple matter of "lousy DMing" to quote someone above. On the flip side, if a character is just badly built, I'd rather the DM pitch in to make it more effective rather than listen to a player continually whine about being ineffective.

 

[ragnar99]

I need to know what Pun-Pun is. I keep reading it but can't figure out what it is. Any help would be appreciated.

Here is the link to Pun-Pun. Any judgements on the cheesiness of said build you can make on your own.

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=491801&page=1&pp=30

 

[Ferrix]

Sneak Attack does not apply to tertiary attacks (bite attacks, etc) So that final hit is never a SA.

Sneak attack applies to any attack which qualifies (flat-footed, denied dexterity, flanking), where'd you read this one?

 

[Ralts Bloodthorne]

I'll be honest, my players came up and wanted to start a new campaign after The Winter War series (most of the PC's were dead, those that weren't, were totally messed up, but the PLAYERS were happy with the results. They'd won) using the rule variant from Unearthed Arcana where you buy and build abilities.

The player of the ONLY caster asked permission to be able to cast both divine and arcane spells.

EVERYONE took sneak attack.

I was a little apprehensive, but went with it any way.

It was an absolutely fabulous campaign. The PC's would hide by the trail and attack groups of enemies, lunging out to hit with sneak attacks, the caster had to pull double duty (a modified sorcerer spell ability, and a spell was a spell, divine/arcane both cost a slot to cast) and even the "fighter" classes had sneak attack.

It wasn't a game breaker, it was quite a bit of fun.

Because I "let it ride" and waited to see where it was going.

Their ability to pump out damage in the opening shots let THEM do ambushes on larger groups (usually attacking thier mages or clerics) as well as run for it if things got tough and pull of guerrilla warfare in the jungle.

Sometimes the players can surprise you. Just "let it ride" for a few gaming sessions, but let the player's know you have apprehensions, and will NOT put up with any BS.