Rogue Sneak Attacks

[BadMojo]

Another big thing about the rogue which was kind of alluded to is that they typically go down nice and easy. Since they have only d6 HD (typically) and light armor, a big hulking character (such as a giant) would be wise to first knockout the fleshbag that's stabbing him over and over in the neck.

I don't know much about that fancy Gestalt stuff, but I think it's a good assumption that a well-played (and long-lived) rogue would do well to keep himself out of heavy melee.

I know our party rogue is very careful about how she gets in to melee for her sneak attacks. Consequently, she has one of the few characters in our long-running campaign that hasn't died yet!

 

[Ferrix]

Okay. I'm going to come to your game with an ego whip Wilder who does 20 Charisma damage on a successful save, or a metamagic illumian Dread Necromancer who does 32 Strength damage with no save, or a springing, tripping spiked chain goliath Fighter with jotunbrud, kick them while they're down and a weapon that gives me +4 to trip checks.

You don't mind, right?

*shrugs* Most of those would be fine depending on if, as others have said, there is more to the characters than the one trick pony-ness. Trying to fight your way through everything that comes up will probably make you too many enemies to handle in any decent game, even if you can ego whip for 20 charisma damage.

Don't have heroes of horror, so I don't have dread necromancers in my games yet, interesting though.

p.s. Just to let you know, you can't legally make that goliath since jotunbrud is only allowed to humans from two regions in FR.

 

[JustKim]

You wouldn't need it anyway being a goliath, I backed up there mid-thought and added one without removing the other.

I don't understand how anyone could equate allowing anything, no matter how broken, with being a good DM. The slipperiness of this slope is mind boggling. So far everything that's come from a WotC book is A-OK, regardless of potential insanity. Does this also extend to third-party products? Would you wave in characters with every hinderance-free benefit that could be found? Could I take this one further and just start writing my own broken rules and handing them in?

When is a DM allowed to say no, this is too much, reel it in some?

 

[Crothian]

When is a DM allowed to say no, this is too much, reel it in some?

When it disrupts the game and subtracts from the fun. Nothing you have posted here by iteself does that. It takes a distruptive player to do that, and those are even easier to handle as the DM can say no to them even being at the table.

But it is easy to say no and limit characters, a Good DM doesn't have to do that as he has other options in dealing with potentially problem character.

 

[Vocenoctum]

When it disrupts the game and subtracts from the fun. Nothing you have posted here by iteself does that. It takes a distruptive player to do that, and those are even easier to handle as the DM can say no to them even being at the table.

But it is easy to say no and limit characters, a Good DM doesn't have to do that as he has other options in dealing with potentially problem character.

Outside of the Gestalt situation, if one player makes a PC that is drastically out of sync (powerwise or anything), the DM really should make sure the PC fits the game. "Dealing with it" by escalating the power curve is a no-win situation.

 

[JustKim]

When it disrupts the game and subtracts from the fun. Nothing you have posted here by iteself does that.

You can't possibly assert that. I, for one, would not be having fun if another member of the party could put anything into a coma with a standard action and nobody else among us could hope to contribute. Don't insinuate that I'm a bad DM when you're sanctifying a pet PC who tears through the game making every other player so much tinsel, just because you think you can "deal with them" through ability circumvention.

 

[Crothian]

Outside of the Gestalt situation, if one player makes a PC that is drastically out of sync (powerwise or anything), the DM really should make sure the PC fits the game. "Dealing with it" by escalating the power curve is a no-win situation.

THere are other tricks a DM has besides just esculating the power curve. and these examples were for a single character the power level of the other characters was never discussed here so they could be on the same level. It is possible for the characters to be out of sync and fitr the game. D&D does now have this idea of balance but others games and other editions didn't and they worked.

 

[Crothian]

You can't possibly assert that. I, for one, would not be having fun if another member of the party could put anything into a coma with a standard action and nobody else among us could hope to contribute. Don't insinuate that I'm a bad DM when you're sanctifying a pet PC who tears through the game making every other player so much tinsel, just because you think you can "deal with them" through ability circumvention.

As the DM it is my job to know the players and to know if they can deal with this type of character. I never said you were a bad DM, I didn't say anyone was a bad DM so I think you need to not see attacks and insults were there are none. And who said anything about a pet PC? You are the one who obvious knows about all these poiwer plays, I'd think you were the one with the pet PCs. If the other players are tinsel then maybe the other players didn't do the job of making a character right or possible the DM failed. Who knows? But you really are missing the point. Just becasue a character is powerful does not automatically mean it is out of balance. Just becasue a DM can say no doesn't mean they always should. There are many ways of handling these situations, a DM with experience and knowledge of the system; a good DM has other options then just telling a player no.

 

[Jackelope King]

You can't possibly assert that. I, for one, would not be having fun if another member of the party could put anything into a coma with a standard action and nobody else among us could hope to contribute. Don't insinuate that I'm a bad DM when you're sanctifying a pet PC who tears through the game making every other player so much tinsel, just because you think you can "deal with them" through ability circumvention.

But you overlook many, many things about ego whip.

First and foremost, it doesn't come into its own until mid-to-high levels (mid levels for the wilder). Before you can augment it high enough, it's mostly for show, since charisma damage which is less than enough to knock someone out means absolutely nothing to most enemies. Being able to just damage someone is much more important at low levels.

Second, ego whip only affects one target, so extremely common situations like fighting many enemies (goblin patrol, Meepo's posse, etc.) will make ego whip a poor choice of offensive power.

Then you must recognize that a good degree of common foes (undead, oozes, constructs, plants) are immune to mind-affecting abilities. At high levels, everyone who's worth ego whipping is mind blanked.

This isn't ability circumvention: there's still plenty of encounters where you can mind-rape people. But there are also plenty where ego whip isn't the end-all-be-all of ending encounters.

In most situations, wilders I've seen ego whipping people into comas are about as effective as rage-aholic barbarians: they hit someone, and that someone drops. But you're only doing it once a turn. Against a brutal single foe, it can be powerful, but against groups, or against foes immune to mind-affecting abilities, or at low levels, it's more style than substance.

There are some end-all-be-alls to D&D. Pun-pun is the prime example, and I'd be hard-pressed to allow that in any game other than the silliest of games. Ego whipping and spiked chaining aren't even in the same ballpark as real bustedness.

 

[Lord Wyrm]

There are some end-all-be-alls to D&D. Pun-pun is the prime example, and I'd be hard-pressed to allow that in any game other than the silliest of games. Ego whipping and spiked chaining aren't even in the same ballpark as real bustedness.

I need to know what Pun-Pun is. I keep reading it but can't figure out what it is. Any help would be appreciated.