Rogue survival in the land of the unliving. Looking for advice...

[nittanytbone]

Arguing about the merits of Duelists in general is for another thread. I think any serious optimizer would agree with me that it is almost never a good idea to take duelist levels.

However, I think anyone would agree that for this OP, it does NOTHING. Just a quick rundown of class features:

*Precise Strike doesn't work on undead (just like SA).
*Canny Defense is easily beaten by studded leather armor and a buckler, affordable from level 1 on up. Or in this case, by mage armor. The only advantage I can see is that it helps against touch attacks, which is nice against the undead. Oh, wait -- it doesn't help if you're flatfooted. And as incorporal undead can pass through objects at will, you're probably going to be surprised/ambushed a fair amount, which means it doesn't help at all.
*Improved Reaction +2: Always nice to go sooner, but really?
*Enhanced Mobility: Worthless. You have tumble, right?
*Grace: Worthless. Your reflex save is already great. We're really worried about the...
*Poor Will and Fort saves: Ooops. Fear effects and level drain still suck.

Seriously, if you don't get anything else out of this thread, you should SKIP DUELIST. Especially against the undead.

 

[Old Drew Id]

Just thought of this from a rogue-cleric in a campaign I play in: Get your weapon enchanted as a spell-storing weapon, and store a good anti-undead spell in it. Your first hit in combat will be a nice big boom.

 

[Darmanicus]

Ok without reading all the responses because I'm at work here's my 2 bits.....pls forgive any repetition here mate......

Get your GM to agree on respeccing your rogue a little. In this campaign your snaek attack is next to useless, the party really needs a rogue, you agreed to play one and it's not your fault that one of your main combat abilities has been nerfed because you have accomadated everyone.

Take a look at the rogue variant in Unearthed Arcana, it allows you to switch out your SA for feats as if you were a warrior. You then dump all of those feats into TWF, focus and greater focus with that chain of yours. Actually get rid of the chain, IMHO it's a silly weapon, (no offense mate), and you will get a feat back. All in all that will be 6 feats in total!!!

Now purchase 2 identical light blunt weapons such as lt maces or warhammers I think and stick +1 enchants on them followed by Bane: Undead and Disruption enchants on them. Much later make them Holy! I'm sure also that some undead types have damage reduction which only silver can overcome so why not make them silvered weapons as well? Watch your GM weep.

At level 10 take another level of rogue variant then possibly think of switching to Ranger for extra undead to hit and damage and skill type goodness.

Quick recap:

1. Retro-switch to variant Rogue from UA to give you 5 feats:
a. Weapon Focus: Lt Mace.
b. Two Weapon Fighting.
c. Improved Two Weapon Fighting.
d. Improved Buckler Defense.
e. Improve Initiative.

2. Dump the chain for 2 lt maces and get a feat back:
a. Maybe try one of the combat styles in Complete Warrior, (in fact I think there is one specifically designed for using 2 lt maces).

3. 2 lt maces:
a. Silvered.
b. +1 weapons at least.
c. Undead Bane enchant.
d. Disruption enchant.
e. Holy enchant, (probably a few levels later).

4. Get a nice buckler and enchant it heavily.

5. @10th level take one last level of variant rogue for that bonus feat and I think some funky rogue ability.

So sayeth the Dar.

 

[Shazman]

Expedition to Caslte Ravenloft has an alternate class feature for rogues that works well against undead. It' called penetrating strike and it lets you do half of your sneak attack dice in damage to undead. You still have to flank them or catch them flat-footed. It also doesn't work against incorporeal creatures on non-undead immune to sneak attack. All you have to give up is trap sense.

 

[Kmart Kommando]

Hmm, that's not much of a trade-off, since trapsense almost never comes into play. Your reflex saves are usually high enough anyway, and no one uses attack traps anymore, not even premade modules.

 

[Zaruthustran]

One other option: Use Magic Device. Get yourself a bunch of anti-undead wands or scrolls, or at the very least some healing wands and scrolls. A wand of Cure Moderate Wounds lets you help your buddies and/or hurt the undead.

 

[nittanytbone]

Take a look at the rogue variant in Unearthed Arcana, it allows you to switch out your SA for feats as if you were a warrior. You then dump all of those feats into TWF, focus and greater focus with that chain of yours.

The only problem is that TWF is only efficient with lots of bonus damage (like sneak attack). Honestly, if you want damage output, just go two-handed with a greatsword and power attack and str of 14+.

Its a one-level fighter dip to get proficiency with all those nice weapons, or even better, a level of Human Paragon to get the one you really want.

 

[Quartz]

However, I think anyone would agree that for this OP, it does NOTHING.

I'm sorry, but I'm going to bite. Perhaps you missed the bit where he mentioned that it's only going to be undead-heavy for the next few levels? In the immediate term, you are quite correct that taking the Duellist class will not help. But in the longer term, it may fit the character quite well.

 

[Kalendraf]

1. What kind of undead you're facing.

Varies a lot. DM is using a lot of stuff from Libras Mortis.

2. The terrain you're facing them in.

Mostly outdoors. This Plane of the Abyss is essentially a gigantic cemetary, so most fights happen in that kind of setting. Also, there is a continual gloom across the entire plane, so lighting range/sight range is fairly limited. Quite often, when we do spot monsters, they are already on top of us. The possibility of getting ambushed and/or surrounded by any particular undead mob is pretty high. A few encounters have happened inside some form of enclosed chamber (crypts, towers, etc)

3. The classes and focuses (types of spells prefered, favored weapons, etc.) of the other PCs.

A ) Half-orc Ranger w/ Two Weapon Fighting (battle axe + hand axe). His AC is not that great, and he's gotten hurt very badly in most fights so far. Player is now running him as an overly skittish character that is as likely to turn and run as he is to stay and fight. This is potentially realistic RP, but devastating to the party. During the last adventure, he decided to spend most of the time "guarding" the escape route while the rest of the party did the actual fighting.

B ) Elf Psion w/ blaster type powers. One of our two big guns.

C ) Human Sorcerer w/ blaster type spells. The other big gun. Tends to fireball or magic missile first and ask questions later.

D ) Dwarf Cleric. About what you'd expect, but he is getting forced into front line duty far more than anyone would prefer. Quite often, we'd like to have him attack, turn undead, cast a buff, and cast a heal...all on the same turn.

Perhaps we can suggest some interesting tactics that you haven't yet considered. D&D is all about teamwork, and a group that works together like a well-oiled machine can have far more success than a group that isn't backing each other up

The ranger & dwarf are played by less experienced players, but the psion & sorc players are fairly experienced, as am I (been DM'ing for 22 years now). If you've got suggestions, I'd be glad to hear them, but most of the obvious, and even not-so-obvious tactics are already being employed...or at least I think they are.

Convince your GM to let you ditch Combat Expertise using the PHB2 retraining rules -- Imp Trip and Imp Disarm will always be useless to you and they'll only get more useless as you go up in level, so combat expertise is a WASTED feat.

At this point Imp Trip and Imp Disarm are not options I'm even considering. Combat Expertise is defintely NOT a wasted feat since it's enormous AC bump is one of the few things keeping this character alive in various fights. There's a lot more to this feat than it's subsequent feat-chain.

And the OP didn't note any armour at all.

I listed it in a subsequent post above:

Shadow Shroud (+2 deflection AC, 20% miss while in shadows) - robes occupying the body/armor slot
Charm Necklace (+2 profane AC vs undead)
+2 Bracers of Defense

From all the suggestions, it looks like most suggestions fall into two main categories: equipment options, or a character respec. On the equipment end, I'll see what I can do, but my options there are somewhat limited due to our present gold situation. As for the respec, while it may seem like a cool idea, it seems like more of a "whiner's" option at this point. These characters are supposed to be fish-out-of-water in this setting, so asking for a character do-over at this point isn't really fair to the DM, his campaign, or the other players.

As for the next level, I've decided that I'll put another level in Rogue, but I'm not entirely sure on the feat yet.

 

[kerbarian]

D ) Dwarf Cleric. About what you'd expect, but he is getting forced into front line duty far more than anyone would prefer. Quite often, we'd like to have him attack, turn undead, cast a buff, and cast a heal...all on the same turn.

If you can afford to put even more of a burden on this guy's spells, you could have him cast imbue with spell ability and grant your rogue 2x grave strike + (if possible) extended grave strike. That would give you 4 rounds of being able to sneak attack undead, which is pretty significant if spent wisely.