Rogue vs Avenger

[Yurtalpus]

Hello, first I want to start off by mentioning that its been about 7 years since I've played D&D. I was recently invited to a game by an old friend and decided to join the campian. They are starting at level 1 (4th ed). I have read a few pages of threads and the PHB1&2 and have decided to go with an avenger or rogue. I come from a past of playing 2ed warriors (damage) and rogues (damage versatility) and would like to know how other players feel about the damage and utility of rogues vs avengers in 4th ed. Due to the huge diffrence of mechanics between 2ed and 4ed I'm having trouble guessing which I might enjoy the most.

Also, I apologize in advance if this was the wrong section of the forum. The other option didnt look good either.

Thanks for any feedback,
Yurtalpus

 

[Obryn]

Hi, and good question!

If you're looking for a straight-up damage dealer who's a bit of a glass cannon, a Rogue will work wonderfully. If you pay attention to your Combat Advantage, a Rogue can dish out absolutely sick amounts of damage. That's mostly what they get, though - they deal damage, they're not very durable, and they're highly mobile. (In my own game, our party's rogue crits with a dagger on 18-20 and deals 39+3d12 on a crit.) All three flavors of Rogue are pretty cool, so take whatever you'd like. Unless you pick the Ruthless Ruffian, though, stick with daggers - your [W] damage is greatly outweighed by your sneak attack damage, and the extra +1 to-hit is very helpful in landing it.

Avengers have crazier tactics because you're all about going one-on-one with monsters. They deal more reliable, but less peak, damage than rogues do. Over time, I think they will do less - possibly quite a bit less. On the other hand, they have insane defenses; it's quite hard to hit an Avenger who doesn't want to get hit. They also have a lot more staying power than Rogues do. You're not a pure striker - you're a striker with shades of Defender thrown in. If you do go with an Avenger, be sure to get weapons to really lay down the pain when you crit - which you can do rather easily. Fullblades and Execution Axes are your friend!

How's your party look? Do you have a Warlord? What about a Fighter? If you do, then a Rogue is probably a better bet. If your party is more ranged-focused, or already has a striker or two, or is light on healing, or has no serious Defender, an Avenger may be better.

Good luck!!

-O

 

[Yurtalpus]

From what I understand the party will consist of a warlord/fighter (player hasnt decided between the two), a ranger, a warlock, myself, and an AE caster class.

 

[Turtlejay]

. . .How's your party look? Do you have a Warlord? What about a Fighter? If you do, then a Rogue is probably a better bet. If your party is more ranged-focused, or already has a striker or two, or is light on healing, or has no serious Defender, an Avenger may be better.

Good luck!!

-O

Very good point. I'm sure if this thread picks up you will get some votes for rogue simple because they do MORE DAMAGE!!!!!!, but there are other things to consider, like party makeup. Avengers are Divine Strikers, so if you think the holy warrior is a cool thing to play up, that can be fun.

Since you are new, this might be a bad suggestion, but you could try to go with both. Multiclass or Hybrid Ranger/Avenger is actually quite popular (sometimes called daggervenger, right?). Using the Avenger's ability to roll twice and the Rogue Paragon Path that increases Dagger Crit range you can make somthing that is not quite either class.

I'd look at the whole package. What does the character as a whole bring to the party, not just the pointy end of his stick.

Jay

 

[Llamas Notsheep]

Generally speaking (without getting into wonky builds like half-elf twin strike daggermaster avengers), rogues will do a bit more damage, but avengers will be more durable and versatile. Rogue damage goes down if your party doesn't have many melee characters. I've played both a bit and found avenger to be a little more interesting in combat simply because it's so versatile.

 

[Obryn]

From what I understand the party will consist of a warlord/fighter (player hasnt decided between the two), a ranger, a warlock, myself, and an AE caster class.

Well, that makes things tough. Your party is already rather striker-heavy with a Ranger, a Warlock, and a Rogue or Avenger. It's also probably ranged-heavy, with a Warlock, a Wizard/Invoker, and the possibility of a Bow Ranger. In hope, your indecisive friend will pick a Warlord, otherwise you guys will be hurting bad!

All things considered, if your choices are down to Rogue or Avenger, I would go with Avenger in this party. You will be able to control the melee field a little better, your high defenses will make you less needy for the limited healing available, and the rest of your party will be doing quite a bit of damage already.

-O

 

[Garthanos]

quick question how does an avenger isolate them bad guys.. does he have a nice.. come and get it move or a portable arena circle of protection?

 

[Ryujin]

quick question how does an avenger isolate them bad guys.. does he have a nice.. come and get it move or a portable arena circle of protection?

Shifting powers, pulling powers, teleport powers....... Oath of the Final Duel is pretty good. It also doesn't hurt to have a friendly Controller in the room.

 

[Satori]

quick question how does an avenger isolate them bad guys.. does he have a nice.. come and get it move or a portable arena circle of protection?

The Avenger is all about "I get you away from your buddies so we can cuddle".

Pursuing: I hit you, and teleport you x squares to the middle of nowhere. I then teleport next to you for a great big hug.

Isolating: I hit you, and place a zone around you that discourages your buddies from getting close. Once your friends decide you smell too bad for cuddling, I step in and apply some cuddleage myself.

Unity: I want my friends to join in on all the awesome cuddle action, so I try to surround you and apply hugs in massive quantities with lots of company.

 

[Sgt_Shock]

I read an extensive thread on OathofEnmity Avengers vs. Brutal Rogues in terms of raw DPR (Damage per round). It showed that the two classes have nearly identical damage outputs over long periods of time in various tested combat situations. I imagined the two classes' "graphs of damage output" differing greatly. The Brutal Rogue's would probably look like a mountain range, with massive spikes and dips -- each signifying misses and moments with combat advantage. The OoE Avenger's would be more like a smooth plateau. The reason for this is the Avenger's unique ability to roll 2d20 each attack, (picking the best result of the two). This does the following:

-Avengers only roll automatic misses 1/400 of the time, instead of the usual 1/20.
-They also roll crits 1/10 attacks, instead of 1/20.
-Lastly, and most obviously, this increases their accuracy by a solid amount.

But this is just mathcraft. I'm only showing it to you to convince you that no matter your choice between the two, your combat effectiveness as a Striker won't be set back. Now, let's get to the more important (or less important to some), differences.

When players create and play their characters, they're faced with several choices of action. These seemingly minor actions are what will determine your character's personality when viewed by others. These could be decisions on whether to take prisoners, put creatures out of their misery, extort other people, or steal when no one's looking. As Rogue, you get much more flexibility in this department. As a Divine class, you are restricted to the morality of your deity. Of course, there is always a little wiggleroom, but your deity's opinion will always be there. For some players, deities are nothing but cage bars in an otherwise limitless world of choices. But to some, they serve as guidance and reassurance when making difficult choices.

Just a few things to keep in mind when making your choice.