Rogue waepon talent

[killbydeath]

I was wondering if the rogue weapon talent did increase the die size by one with the dagger as well as the shuriken and if the shuriken get +1 to attack roll. The rogue in our group is weilding the 2.

 

[James McMurray]

Nope

 

[ceswiedler]

Personally I think the d6 weapon damage for shurikens is kind of silly. I would much prefer to give both shurikens and daggers +1 to attack and leave both at d4 damage. In addition, that makes it easier (fluff-wise) to reflavor shurikens as thowing knives.

 

[DracoSuave]

You don't need to reflavor shuriken as throwing knives. They already are. (Not all shuriken were diskystars for ninja)

And you can already throw daggers for 1d4. Having an exotic weapon that is exactly the same in all ways except can't be used in melee isn't good design. Shuriken are for rogues, and that's why the expanded dice.

 

[Ibixat]

I used shuriken till I got two fisted shooter from MP, now it's hand crossbow all the way, it doesn't hurt that I'm drow and will pick up the expanded die for it later.

 

[eleventh]

You don't need to reflavor shuriken as throwing knives. They already are. (Not all shuriken were diskystars for ninja)

And you can already throw daggers for 1d4. Having an exotic weapon that is exactly the same in all ways except can't be used in melee isn't good design. Shuriken are for rogues, and that's why the expanded dice.

True that. I wonder if +1,1d4 and +0,1d6 are equivalent though. Attack bonuses seem to trump damage most of the time.

 

[Ibixat]

True that. I wonder if +1,1d4 and +0,1d6 are equivalent though. Attack bonuses seem to trump damage most of the time.

Usually they do but I'll be going to 1d8 for the crossbow with drow feat and with two fisted shooter I get a free ranged basic attack any time I crit. I'm sitting at +9 to hit with my hand crossbow at 4th level +11 with my dagger or +10 with a shuriken (not including magic item bonus) at 1-6 (2-6 since I wouldn't range attack at 1) squares the Shuriken is +1 to hit vs the hand crossbow, at 7-10 squares the crossbow is actually +1 over the shuriken due to range, then at 11 and 12 shuriken is +1 again then 13-20 the shuriken is just out of luck completely.

When you figure that my primary weapon is probably going to have better enchant than my shuriken or crossbow would then I may as well use my dagger if I'm throwing under 5 squares.

Here is a quick chart, taking equal enchantments into consideration the dagger vs shuriken vs hand xbow to proficiency + talent bonuses at overlapping ranges etc.

	+4	+3	+2
Range	Dagr	Shrkn	HndXbw
1-5	4	3	2
6	2	3	2
7-10	2	1	2
11-12	x	1	0
13-20	x	x	0

With Far Shot and Far Throw Factored in

	+4	+3	+2
Range	Dagr	Shrkn	HndXbw
1-7	4	3	2
8	2	3	2
9-12	2	1	2
12-14	x	1	2
15	x	x	2
16-25	x	x	0

So at short range unless you have the same magic + on your shuriken as your dagger throwing the dagger is the better choice, most people would have a +1 dagger and non magic shuriken or +2 dagger and still only +1 shuriken, which completely negates the D6 vs D4 reason to use shuriken, and the +1 to hit benefit of the dagger at 1-5 squares is nothing to sneeze at. The same goes for dagger vs hand crossbow at 1-5 squares, dagger's +2 to hit and likely +1 better enchantment makes it the better choice.

At 6 squares the shuriken hit's it's sweet spot!

At 7-10 squares the dagger if +1 more than your crossbow is also better again. Same to hit and crossbow is 1 damage better per die of damage etc, basically if you have +2 dagger and +1 crossbow, you may want to use the dagger as your damage on a 1W attack will be the same, if you do take the drow feat to get D8 crossbow then the crossbow does get better at range 6-10 than the dagger if the same enchantment bonus.

Range 11-12 is another shuiken vs hand crossbow sweet spot but at this point you basically have dagger best at 1-5, shuriken best at 6, dagger and hand crossbow better than shuriken at 7-10, shuriken better at 11 12 and hand crossbow the only choice at 13-20.

1-5 Dagger
6 Shuriken
7-10 Dagger OR Xbow
11-12 Shuriken
13-20 Xbow.

This does not stack up well for a shuriken.

My prior statement about using shuriken was true by the way, but I guess I should have pointed out it was only if I needed the range over the dagger and before I got the magic dagger.

Far shot and far throw make the hand crossbow and dagger even more attractive against the shuriken

 

[Astlin]

Long time playing D&D but I am working on my first 4E character, so I am not sure I have this right.

There are only 3 attacks in the PHB that list 'light thrown weapon'
Blinding Barrage (Close Blast 3)
Cloud of Steel (Close Blast 5)
Steel Entrapment (Close Blast 5)

What other attacks can you use a Shuriken or thrown dagger with besides 'ranged basic attack'?

It may be eratta, I also notice that my elfs short bow is not listed for any rogue attacks.

 

[WalterKovacs]

Long time playing D&D but I am working on my first 4E character, so I am not sure I have this right.

There are only 3 attacks in the PHB that list 'light thrown weapon'
Blinding Barrage (Close Blast 3)
Cloud of Steel (Close Blast 5)
Steel Entrapment (Close Blast 5)

What other attacks can you use a Shuriken or thrown dagger with besides 'ranged basic attack'?

A number of powers can be either melee or ranged. In those situations, they list "light blades" as a requirement. Both shuriken and daggers are light blades. In fact, ALL light thrown weapons (so far) are also light blades. Only if the power cannot be used as a melee attack will it specify light thrown weapons, because you can't use rapier or short sword for those powers.

It may be eratta, I also notice that my elfs short bow is not listed for any rogue attacks.

Rogue's cannot use bows. Martial power addresses some stuff, like letting eladrin use their longsword and dwarves use their axes/hammers, but there was nothing for allowing elves to use bows as rogues.

 

[peach]

rouges CAN use bows (or any other weapon) if they take the weapon proficiency feat for it. my rouge used it for the katar which is an awesome weapon - off hand, high crit, light blade.