Role Features... Controller left out?

[keterys]

Giving yourself a +2 to +4 bonus to hit is great when trying to debuff an artillery or controller creature way over there.

Giving yourself a +2 to +4 bonus to hit is great when trying to...

... kill something with a backstab
... immobilize something so you can defend
... hit with a healing attack so someone else can heal

A bonus to attack is not control. It's just good

Anyhow, the wizard seems quite effective and I do plan on playing one. I'm just very curious to see what the next three controllers look like.

 

[The Hitcher]

I think that the wizard ability to choose which spells he wishes to prepare each day qualifies as "controller" flavored.

I agree with this. While it is less direct than the other 'role-defining' abilities (it doesn't happen on the battlefield), this flexibility in power selection does qualify as an element of control. Sure, other classes can retrain or use different weapons, but (like the other role-defining abilities), no-one else has the same level of flexibility in power selection. More than any other class, the wizard is able to plan ahead and adapt his tactics based on pre-combat information gathering. Thus he is able to better control the battlefield than others. This could well be the hallmark of controllers.

Then again, other controllers may have completely different approaches. It's all speculation at this point.

 

[Spenser]

As other people have pointed out -- yes, all classes have some form of AoE / zone control. But if you compare the wizard's AoE / zone control type powers to others of the same level, the wizard's are almost always better. You can find counter-examples where this is not the case, but in general, I think the wizard has the advantage power-wise.

But also -- the implements are actually important! Admittedly, staff and wand are not particularly exciting, but the orb's ability to lower saves is unbelievably good for a high Wis controller mage, and only gets better as you increase your Wisdom and get Spell Focus. When you're hitting them with -7, -8, -9 on saves, that Sleep or Web *will* stick on that nasty elite. It is a game-changing ability, usable every encounter, and only the controller wizard can pull it off.

I think orb wizards are fine, I'm more concerned about the wand mages being underpowered. Besides being an orb mage, the other mage schtick is the "blaster mage", i.e. "Ok I can't do the best single-target damage, but I can go all-out for the most efficient damage in AoE." But here I think they only have small advantages over clerics (and even other classes). This is in contrast to the very obvious advantage/niche that orb wizards have.

 

[Budalic]

Considering this Cleric vs. Wizard AoE stuff, Wizard has been intentionally given lower damage powers because he gets a lot of power recharge features (two paragon paths have features that regain encounter powers, archmage has one daily two power regenerating feature(s) and archspell, there is one epic daily regaining feat, ...)
The cleric has highest damage AoE daily in game (Astral Storm, lvl 29), but lvl 30 Wizard can cast his lvl 29 daily once per encounter (archspell).

Edit: even lvl 29 wizard can cast that spell 4 times a day.

 

[keterys]

Legion's Hold is an awesome daily. Not sure why you'd ever want meteor swarm over astral storm... it's funny how that particular iconic D&D spell keeps waxing and waning in how much it sucks as the editions progress.

 

[Budalic]

In combination with archmage destiny, especially archspell, meteor shower is better than astral storm.

But I'd also prefer Legion's hold in party with cleric and astral storm.

 

[keterys]

*shrug* Give the priest High Hierophant for the exact same powers as Archmage, if you're going to try to compare one as encounter to one as daily.

I'd definitely take Legion's Hold as encounter over MS though. Mmm, now -that- is control.

 

[Budalic]

By the way, why cleric doesn't have a lvl 29 power that says "Hit: 2[W]+str; Effect (hit or miss) you and up to two allies you can see can spend healing surge, gaining hit points equal to 2 surge walues", or "one ally is fully healed" or "you and two allies... get + 4 to all defenses" or something similar (no, these aren't balanced ideas, i'm just giving examples). They only get one strikerish and one controllerish power, but nothing leaderish.

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

*shrug* Give the priest High Hierophant for the exact same powers as Archmage, if you're going to try to compare one as encounter to one as daily.

Hmm... but if we assume that Paragon Paths and Epic Destines have been balanced in regards to their associated classes, is it really appropriate to just say "well, I can mimic any epic destiny and apply it to any class"?

I don't have the answer to that question, but I think it is pertinent.

And while I don't believe that classes should be balanced on abilities they will eventually get, I do think that balance should be maintained throughout the tiers.

i.e., Meteor Storm was probably built under the assumption that it could be used 2/day or even 1/encounter. I'm not sure this is the case for the high level abilities of other classes.

 

[ZetaStriker]

I don't know what the worry about Astral Storm is... Fire Storm, the level 19 Cleric daily, does better damage than the level 29 Wizard daily and creates a zone. 5d10+Wis+1d10+Wis vs. 8d4+Int doesn't stack up in average damage or crit damage. Especially considering Fire Storm only targets enemies, while Meteor Swarm targets allies too.

Of course, it may just be that Fire Storm is very much overpowered. Its damage output is far above the other level 19 Dailies the Cleric has, and it does it to multiple enemies to boot. It's as if, because it is a Controller power, they buffed it up to make it more appealing to a Leader-style Cleric. All it managed to do, though, is make the Cleric better at some of the things the Wizard does than the Wizard himself.

I just started reading through the whole PHB from power to power myself, and there's a lot more wrong with the Cleric than that though. For instance, Punishing Strike, a level 27 Enounter, does the same thing as Haunting Strike, a level 23 Encounter. Except that Haunting Strike also gives you a +2 to your next attack roll, making the higher level power worse, no matter how you try to interpret it.