Rope Trick VS Discern Location... Rope Trick wins!!!

[Jimlock]

Ok, so Rope trick says:

The upper end is, in fact, fastened to an extradimensional space that is outside the multiverse of extradimensional spaces (“planes”). Creatures in the extradimensional space are hidden, beyond the reach of spells (including divinations), unless those spells work across planes.

...and Discern Location says:

Nothing short of a mind blank spell or the direct intervention of a deity keeps you from learning the exact location of a single individual or object. Discern location circumvents normal means of protection from scrying or location. The spell reveals the name of the creature or object’s location (place, name, business name, building name, or the like), community, county (or similar political division), country, continent, and the plane of existence where the target lies.

Without a doubt, Discern Location can find someone hidden in a Rope Trick.
Rope Trick specifies that it DOES NOT protect against divinations that work across planes, and Discern Location DOES work across planes. Moreover, Discern Location clarifies that only mind blank can stop it.


So lets assume that Salamar (Wizard#1) is in room number-5 of the "Inn of the Dripping Dagger", in the Trades Ward, in WaterDeep.
Thelmaren (Wizard#2) is somewhere in Cormyr (where exactly is of no importance).

1-Thelmaren casts Discern Location to find Salamar. Without a problem, Thelmaren finds that Salamar is on the Material Plane, on Toril, in Faerun, in The North, in Waterdeep, in the Trades Ward, in the Inn of the Dripping Dagger, in room number-5. Case Closed

2-Salamar is in room number-5 etc etc... and he casts Rope Trick. Once again Thelmaren casts Discern Location. Now all Thelmaren knows is that Salamar is in an extradimensional space that is outside the multiverse of extradimensional spaces (“planes”).

Rope Trick Wins. Case Closed

 

[Greenfield]

... unless a DM chooses to re-open it by including the location of the entrance to that space.

In which case Discern Location wins.

It's a case of RAI v RAW, when RAW is a little fuzzy.

 

[Jimlock]

... unless a DM chooses to re-open it by including the location of the entrance to that space.

In which case Discern Location wins.

It's a case of RAI v RAW, when RAW is a little fuzzy.

I don't think that RAW is fuzzy in this case. Discern Location clearly zooms in from something as abstract as the Plane, down to a specific location. It clearly states that it gives Location names.

Giving descriptions of entrances and exits and about where they lead, is beyond the spells description.

A DM might houserule that way (and perhaps he should), but he'd be houseruling.

 

[Greenfield]

It gives the plane, nation, continent, city, state, address, zip code and the exact chair in the specific room.

In short, everything needed to find the place.

Why should Rope Trick be any different? Why wouldn't it tell you how to find the place, including the plane, nation, continent, city, state, address, and zip code of the specific room the Rope Trick entrance exists in?

Consider casting Discern Location, and the DM replied, "He's in the fourth chair to the King's right", and nothing else. He gave you an exact location, but left out the context that the spell normally calls for.

Now, is it a house rule to include context when describing a nameless place? The spell description gives you the *name* of the place, but the Rope Trick creates a private reality bubble, one that doesn't have a name. The only way the spell can describe such a place, uniquely, is to name the place it originates from. It's the last name on the list. (Unless, that is, the fourth chair from the King's right hand somehow has a unique name... )

Such a description isn't in any way outside of RAW, and is pretty clearly RAI.

 

[Jimlock]

In short, everything needed to find the place.

This is where I strongly disagree. Discern location does not give "everything" to find the place. It gives you location names. If the locations happen to be named, that is fine, if not...well the caster was unlucky.
Example:
You are in the middle of a vast desert and someone casts Discern Location to find you. What more can he know apart that you are in that specific desert? Nothing.

Is the spell going to start describing dune designs so as to specify the location? No. This is impossible.

The spell does not "describe", does not draw out maps, does not "help picture". it simply states locations as far as those locations have some sort of name.

The spell reveals the name of the creature or object’s location (place, name, business name, building name, or the like), community, county (or similar political division), country, continent, and the plane of existence where the target lies.

Why should Rope Trick be any different? Why wouldn't it tell you how to find the place, including the plane, nation, continent, city, state, address, and zip code of the specific room the Rope Trick entrance exists in?

Because when you zoom out from the extradimensional space you do not see places related to the material plane. You are NOT in the material plane, you are even beyond the planes as described by Rope Trick.
Therefore you see whatever chaotic and nameless exists beyond that space (perhaps extradimensional spaces are covered in some book? The Manual of Planes? I wouldn't know).

To make it clearer:

Lets say I am in London, in a hotel, in a room with a number, and that I cast a spell similar to Rope Trick only that it opens a portal into a hotel room in New York. When I go through the portal, I am no longer in Europe, England, London etc... I now am in USA, New York etc etc... So anyone casting Discern Location to find me. Gets the information related to New York, not London.
Same thing happens with our spell, Rope Trick, only that the "room" it teleports us in is so unspecified, in such an unspecified space and plane that it serves us not to know something about it.

Consider casting Discern Location, and the DM replied, "He's in the fourth chair to the King's right", and nothing else. He gave you an exact location, but left out the context that the spell normally calls for.

No the DM cannot do that per RAW, He is obliged to "zoom out" his information. Starting and continuing by places with some sort of name... any sort of name.

 

[Greenfield]

And here is where I strongly disagree.

You're in the middle of Sahara, or the local equivalent. How can I name your location?

"He's in the desert, 400 miles South of Cairo, Egypt, and 120 miles, 300 yards east of it."

See? Easy.

Can you "Zoom out" from the Rope Trick and find a landmark? Not surprisingly, yes, since you can see from the inside back to the area you cast it from. There's still an opening, and the spell is locked to the location of that opening. Any "Zoom out" in that direction gets you a readily identifiable landmark. A place with a name.

 

[Drowbane]

Discern Location tells them where you are, not how you got there. If you are in a Rope Trick, thats where you are. Some extradimensional zone.

This isn't even a big deal. Who camps out in a Rope Trick indefinately? Cast Discern Location in a couple hours and see if they're still there... eventually you will have a real location. Then its time to Scry&Fry

 

[Greenfield]

So, "He's in a chair" is a valid answer?

Is "He's in a chair at the Smith farm." acceptable?

"He's in a chair, at the Smith farm, south of Farmington" any better?

The last two name the place, after all.

Or does the spell tell you where the person is, relative to uniquely identifiable landmarks?

Remember, there will likely be more than one person using Rope Trick in the multi-verse at any given moment, so even describing the bubble of space-time outside of the confines of any known planes isn't a unique identifier. It's like saying "Smith farm, south of Farmington." All the names, nothing useful in actually discerning their location.

DMs are, after all, free to be Richards (Can't use the word I mean here), but that's neither the purpose of the spell, nor within the normal use of it. You want cryptic, look at Divination.

 

[Sekhmet]

[MENTION=6669384]Greenfield[/MENTION]
If someone were to Discern Location me, right now for example, I'd be in the USA, King George county, Dahlgren, VA, Naval Surface Warfare Center, my house, computer room, chair.
If I were to Rope Trick from this exact location, I would be in an extradimensional space.

If Discern Location allows remote viewing, then he could see very clearly that I was using Rope Trick. If he can't view the area, then he only learns that I'm in an extradimensional space.

Now, a DM could instead say that "rope trick" is just another part of the location. I could be at USA, King George county, Dahlgren, VA, Naval Surface Warfare Center, my house, extradimensional space inside my house. After all, the rope trick is anchored to a specific spot in my house, and it's more or less a doorway.

 

[Greenfield]

That's pretty much what I've been saying.