Rope Trick VS Discern Location... Rope Trick wins!!!

[Drowbane]

[MENTION=6669384]Greenfield[/MENTION]Now, a DM could instead say that "rope trick" is just another part of the location. I could be at USA, King George county, Dahlgren, VA, Naval Surface Warfare Center, my house, extradimensional space inside my house. After all, the rope trick is anchored to a specific spot in my house, and it's more or less a doorway.

..but that would be a House Rule. There is nothing to indicate that Discern Location can tell how you got to where you are. Where you are is Extradimensional.

 

[Greenfield]

It would be a valid interpretation of the spell, not in any way outside of the spell's described function, and fully in line with the clear intent.

If he was in a stateroom aboard a ship in port, would you include where the ship was anchored?

Why would you not include where the Rope Trick was anchored?

In general, if the person is in a nondescript place, such as the desert example used earlier, wouldn't the spell give a position relative to the nearest identifiable landmark?

"He's in a private, extradimensional space that is coterminous with the fifth guest room at the Dripping Dagger Inn, on Sailmaker's Row in Waterdeep."

Nearest identifiable landmark.

 

[Sekhmet]

..but that would be a House Rule. There is nothing to indicate that Discern Location can tell how you got to where you are. Where you are is Extradimensional.

My issue with that is that I'm in an anchored extradimensional space. I'm in my room, up the rope, in the extradimensional space.
The fact that I'm tethered to a physical location means that I'm just across a bridge/through a door, and Discern Location should able to identify that.

 

[Greenfield]

I think we're all really close here.

The problem is that one side insists that theirs is the only valid interpretation of the rules, and that all others are "house rules".

That's usually a hazardous position to take.

But in this case, it's not like it's exactly important. Each DM is going to run it the way they want, and unless we're actually in the same game it's a case of "No harm, no foul".

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Interesting question. It's never come up in a game I've run, but it has come up with regard to Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion; in the case of that spell, I ruled that the target was in an "extradimensional space the relative location of which is apprehensible to you" - I would probably do the same with rope trick. I would not divulge the "entry point" - so to speak - on the plane where the caster of rope trick was situated when the spell was cast.

In the "scry and fry" scenario, I would allow the caster of discern location to plane shift into the area of a rope trick or magnificent mansion, but not teleport to an area coterminous with the extradimensional space, as that area could not, itself, be determined. Even though it is technically possible to arrive up to 500 miles distant from the intended destination of a plane shift, I would consider that the geography of the extradimensional space would contain/eliminate this variable: note that plane shift specifically cites "alternate dimensions" -of which, rope trick is an example.

If the space generated by the rope trick were full (seven creatures, plus the rope itself), I would rule that the plane shift fails.

 

[Greenfield]

The problem with using Plane Shift to access either a Rope Trick or a Magnificent Mansion is that the spell requires a focus attuned to the destination plane, and there's really no way to have such a thing. You've never been there, don't have access to anyone or anything that's ever been there, and have only the limited visual clues you could pick up through your Scry.

While you may have some experience with the spells themselves, each pocket dimension is unique. For Rope Trick the dimensions of the place are variable, based on the number and size of the occupants, and for the Mansion, the entire interior layout is unique with each casting.

Without access, research source, or even a reliable description of the place, and no idea "where" they are relative to any other plane, I don't know how you could ever come up with an attuned focus.

 

[emoplato]

Ok, so Rope trick says:



...and Discern Location says:



Without a doubt, Discern Location can find someone hidden in a Rope Trick.
Rope Trick specifies that it DOES NOT protect against divinations that work across planes, and Discern Location DOES work across planes. Moreover, Discern Location clarifies that only mind blank can stop it.


So lets assume that Salamar (Wizard#1) is in room number-5 of the "Inn of the Dripping Dagger", in the Trades Ward, in WaterDeep.
Thelmaren (Wizard#2) is somewhere in Cormyr (where exactly is of no importance).

1-Thelmaren casts Discern Location to find Salamar. Without a problem, Thelmaren finds that Salamar is on the Material Plane, on Toril, in Faerun, in The North, in Waterdeep, in the Trades Ward, in the Inn of the Dripping Dagger, in room number-5. Case Closed

2-Salamar is in room number-5 etc etc... and he casts Rope Trick. Once again Thelmaren casts Discern Location. Now all Thelmaren knows is that Salamar is in an extradimensional space that is outside the multiverse of extradimensional spaces (“planes”).

Rope Trick Wins. Case Closed

Discern Location wins with transdimensional spell as it includes being able to reach creatures in extradimensional space.

 

[Jimlock]

Discern Location wins with transdimensional spell as it includes being able to reach creatures in extradimensional space.

...and I said that in my first post.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

The problem with using Plane Shift to access either a Rope Trick or a Magnificent Mansion is that the spell requires a focus attuned to the destination plane, and there's really no way to have such a thing. You've never been there, don't have access to anyone or anything that's ever been there, and have only the limited visual clues you could pick up through your Scry.

While you may have some experience with the spells themselves, each pocket dimension is unique. For Rope Trick the dimensions of the place are variable, based on the number and size of the occupants, and for the Mansion, the entire interior layout is unique with each casting.

Without access, research source, or even a reliable description of the place, and no idea "where" they are relative to any other plane, I don't know how you could ever come up with an attuned focus.

Excellent point.

I tend to overlook the foci for plane shift, as they have no gp cost - they have become fluff. Perhaps the solution would be:

1. Discern location to determine wherabouts
2. Commune to determine metal and pitch of tuning fork required. If needed, conjure a quasit or two for further communes
3. Fabricate the necessary tuning fork
4. Plane shift to destination.

Seems like an awful lot of hassle to overcome a 2nd level spell; but hey: players should be inventive.

 

[Jimlock]

And here is where I strongly disagree.

So we agree to disagree.

You're in the middle of Sahara, or the local equivalent. How can I name your location?

"He's in the desert, 400 miles South of Cairo, Egypt, and 120 miles, 300 yards east of it."

See? Easy.

This is not "location naming". You are providing coordinates here.

Discern Location is not a GPS. It simply gives you names, from big to small. That's all the spell says.

Can you "Zoom out" from the Rope Trick and find a landmark? Not surprisingly, yes, since you can see from the inside back to the area you cast it from. There's still an opening, and the spell is locked to the location of that opening. Any "Zoom out" in that direction gets you a readily identifiable landmark. A place with a name.

I "used the zoom out" example in my previous post to explain how the information (location names) provided by the spell scale from small to bigger

AND

to explain how the extradimensional space is clearly, not a part of the material plane.

Ok lets do the exercise once again:

Lets say that we had an immaterial camera, and that we were standing in Rope Trick's extradimensional space.

And lets assume that we could start moving this camera away from the extra dimensional space... like this:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17jymDn0W6U]The Known Universe by AMNH - YouTube[/ame]


To tell you the truth, I wouldn't know what you 'd see, as extradimensional spaces are so vaguely described (and it is good that they are...).

Perhaps you 'll get into a void, a total darknessness, perhaps something else... who knows?

But what I CAN tell you with certainty is that you will not be seeing any of the material plane. Why?

Because you are not in the material plane. In fact you are in an extradimensional space that is outside the multiverse of extradimensional spaces (“planes”)
---> The "Material Plane... is one of those (“planes”)

Now, a DM could instead say that "rope trick" is just another part of the location. I could be at USA, King George county, Dahlgren, VA, Naval Surface Warfare Center, my house, extradimensional space inside my house. After all, the rope trick is anchored to a specific spot in my house, and it's more or less a doorway.

It would be a valid interpretation of the spell, not in any way outside of the spell's described function, and fully in line with the clear intent.

Actually, it IS outside the spell's described function.
Moreover, the extradimensional space is NOT part of any location on the Material Plane.
(Keep reading)

If he was in a stateroom aboard a ship in port, would you include where the ship was anchored?

Yes, because they are both nameable places, belonging to the same plane.
The specific ship is IN the specific port, IN the city, IN that country... IN that plane.
While the extradimensional space is NOT in any place on the Material Plane. It is IN something else... beyond the multiverse of extradimensional spaces (“planes”).

Why would you not include where the Rope Trick was anchored?

Rope Trick's Extradimensional space is where it is. It certainly isn't "anchored" in the material plane. If it were to be anchored somewhere it would be "anchored", somewhere outside the multiverse of extradimensional spaces (“planes”)... as the spell clearly states.

The portal does not "anchor" the extra-dimensional space to the material plane, it does not "move" the space. It does NOTHING to the space. It simply provides a door so as to get from one space to another, from one plane to another. That's all

Discern Location DOES NOT provide something other than location names. It does not give directions it does not provide coordinates, it does not describe rooms, windows, doors. If the place/location has a name. You are lucky! If not... then you have to find another way.

IMHO this is the beauty of the spell as well.

Say that a party is looking for an elf named Mineras. And the party's wizard casts Discern Location. Mineras is in Drucilda's House in some village without street names or districts.

The party might not know who Drucilda is, but that is all the information they are going to get. So they will have to to travel to that village and investigate so as to find out who Drucilda is, where her house is... and eventually get to Mineras.

Discern location, will NOT tell them "You make a left from the Governor's house and then you go down the road until you reach the armory...etc.etc.". Discern Location will NOT describe the house, It will NOT provide distance or coordinates.

Discern Location will start from the most specific (by location name ONLY) and work its way up to state, country... until the name of the plane, just as the spell describes:

The spell reveals the name of the creature or object’s location (place, name, business name, building name, or the like), community, county (or similar political division), country, continent, and the plane of existence where the target lies.

In general, if the person is in a nondescript place, such as the desert example used earlier, wouldn't the spell give a position relative to the nearest identifiable landmark?

No. The spell does not THINK. if the only thing with a name is the Desert, then that is the only thing you get. If you are lucky and there is an oasis there, then you get that too.

"He's in a private, extradimensional space that is coterminous with the fifth guest room at the Dripping Dagger Inn, on Sailmaker's Row in Waterdeep."

I'm sorry, but that's like saying "he's in a room with a nice view on the lake, a door to the laundry & a 1937 Picasso on the wall.

The fact that I'm tethered to a physical location means that I'm just across a bridge/through a door, and Discern Location should able to identify that.

Nope. If you were on the Material plane in an Inn's room (number 5) and you had opened 3 portals in that room (one to the Nine Hells one to Sigil and one to god knows where... would Discern Location provide information on all the portals in your room and where they lead to?

No it wouldn't. It would simply tell the caster you are on the Material Plane, X city, X Inn... X room. Done.

So why would it provide information on a portal to the material plane when you are on another plane???

And don't tell me because it SHOULD, because it's a powerful spell and yada yada yada...

Even the most powerful of spells and powers have loopholes.... it happens.

...

Even so, Discern Location is a very powerful spell (as written, with names only)

So even if the party does not manage to pinpoint the target, no harm dome... a little investigation won't hurt them.

As for the Rope Trick... @Morrus; nailed it: All the caster has to do is wait and try again later. No one can stay in a rope trick forever.

I think we're all really close here.

The problem is that one side insists that theirs is the only valid interpretation of the rules, and that all others are "house rules".

That's usually a hazardous position to take.

And I could say that reading something that isn't written is eqaully hazardous

Each DM is going to run it the way they want, and unless we're actually in the same game it's a case of "No harm, no foul".

To that I agree.