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Rules, Rules, Rules (Legends & Lore)

Gortle

Explorer
False. If something is difficult for a 1st level character, the exact same task should be quite easy for a 10th level one. Perhaps trivial. It's rarely going to be the exact same task, though. The DC doesn't change because the character levels up, the DC changes because higher level characters face more difficult challenges.

I know its nuts but:

Page 133 of the rules compendium lists "Slide down a staircase on a shield while standing (hard DC)" amongst others.
Page 126 tells you the roll for hard DC by level.

That is DC scaling of the same activity.

:p
 
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Tymophil

Explorer
I do agree with Mr. Cook on one, and only one, statement : "the content of the official books have an impact on the game." Though, I think that what in the published adventures have a lot more impact than what is written in the rulebooks.

For example, hazards, traps, quests and skill challenges allow for the reward in experience points in the Dungeon Master's Guide. Though it has been in the system from day one, most people think that in D&D4 you only get xp for the destruction of monsters. Why is it so? Because no published adventure made full use of those features, and concentrate on combat almost exclusively.

For everything else I disagree with Mr. Cook. There should be as few rules as possible in "rulebooks", especially the Dungeon Master's Guide. There should be guidelines, along with a few examples. In WotC adventures, there should be other examples, based on the guidelines, but varying broadly, tuned to make the encounter as interesting as possible.

In the Dungeon Master's Guide, one could read something like :
  1. The speed of climb depends on the character speed, skill test success, and the kind of surface and angle of the slope.
  2. The requirement, results and DC of Athletics check depends on the same parameters and could be combined with what precedes.

A few examples would follow. More examples (making good use of all the range allowed by the guidelines) would be given in the published adventures.
 

Phaoz

Explorer
I know its nuts but:

Page 133 of the rules compendium lists "Slide down a staircase on a shield while standing (hard DC)" amongst others.
Page 126 tells you the roll for hard DC by level.

That is DC scaling of the same activity.

:p

I don't think the rules need to tell the DM to set DCs aproprite to the challange level he thinks it should be.

they should however tell him what a level aproprite DC is.
 

Jan van Leyden

Adventurer
Jan van Leyden; said:
False. If something is difficult for a 1st level character, the exact same task should be quite easy for a 10th level one. Perhaps trivial. It's rarely going to be the exact same task, though. The DC doesn't change because the character levels up, the DC changes because higher level characters face more difficult challenges.

I know its nuts but:

Page 133 of the rules compendium lists "Slide down a staircase on a shield while standing (hard DC)" amongst others.
Page 126 tells you the roll for hard DC by level.

That is DC scaling of the same activity.

:p

Ummh, did I write this somewhere? Not that I'd know...
 


delericho

Legend
For example, hazards, traps, quests and skill challenges allow for the reward in experience points in the Dungeon Master's Guide. Though it has been in the system from day one, most people think that in D&D4 you only get xp for the destruction of monsters. Why is it so? Because no published adventure made full use of those features, and concentrate on combat almost exclusively.

'twas always thus. In 3e, XP is gained for defeating challenges, with combat being only one way of defeating those challenges. And, sure enough, most people (and published adventures) ignore that in favour of exclusively giving XP for monsters.
 

Crazy Jerome

First Post
When it comes to scaling of skills over levels, is there any good reason to do so the way 3E/4E does, other than:

1. Psychological - reinforce with bigger numbers that things that were tough at 1st level are easy at 10th.

2. Handling time - scaling is built into the system so that you have a d20+mod roll at any given level.

Reason I ask is that one potential way to make scaling more flexibile is to explicitly not embed the scaling factor. For example, say that the scaling factor is 1:1 with level. Characters have a level. Things to overcome worth XP have a level (e.g. traps, hazards, skill challenges, etc.) You get a postive or negative mod based on these levels.

So climbing a rough wall is DC 15 (whatever that entails). Against this, any character can put their athletic skill, climbing gear, etc--d20 + mod, right off the sheet. A 2nd level character encounters a 5th level rough castle wall (whatever else that entails). He gets a -3 to his roll. Later, he comes back as a 6th level character and climbs the same wall. He gets a +1 to his roll. Conceptually, no different than what 4E does now.

However, say that 2nd level character gets over the 5th level rough castle wall. Later, he comes to the inner keep, which is a 7th level rough castle wall. Nothing has changed on his built-in mods. The DC is still 15. However, now he gets a -5 to his roll. This wall is just a bit worse (taller, smoother, whatever). Very similar to now.

The differences might be in the perception of the rules by the players, and ease of remembing the difficulties. Because now the rules are subtlely reinforcing the intent of 4E, which is that only things tough enough to matter and having consequences for failure should be even getting rolls.

Likewise, if the novice DM goes to design his castle, he is making an explicit choice: There is nothing special about the rough outer walls? Just use the default DC 15, assume level 1, and characters will increasingly breeze through as their level increases. However, if the DM wants the wall to be a challenge, then he is giving it a level somewhere around the characters' level, and is thus confronted with explaining why this wall is tougher than the default.

There might be some XP mapping potential there to build upon the already excellent 4E budget rules, but the main point is that even minor changes to the presentation of the same mathematical rules can have an effect. (I know 4E is 1/2 level bonus, not full. But same basic ideas are in place.) Also, if the scaling factor is explicit this way, each table can more easily house rule it out, change it, or make the default fit the implied world.
 

I went for option 2; the last thing I need is a chart providing ammo for players to argue about why they should be able to automatically succeed at something that I've presented to give them a challenge.
Actually this is why you need a table! If you are used to be able to climb a usual stone wall, you should be able to factor this into your decisions.
The 4e way seems to be:
"Hey, the DM presented me with this wall... but i have no clue if it is an easy task or a difficult, but the DM has set a difficulty that is appropriate i guess"

But I am sure, all DCs belong into the DM book...

i voted 3, btw!
 

Tymophil

Explorer
'twas always thus. In 3e, XP is gained for defeating challenges, with combat being only one way of defeating those challenges. And, sure enough, most people (and published adventures) ignore that in favour of exclusively giving XP for monsters.
That proves my point!

Rulebooks don't tell the whole story. Rules implement in published adventures are as important as rules in rulebooks. So rules are not that important, neither for the system reception by players, nor for the actual gameplay.

Therefore, there is no real reason to fill the rulebooks with rules, especially the Dungeon Master's Guide. Guidelines and advices, along with examples, is what Dungeon Masters really need. Rules are just boring for those aspects of the game.
 

Ryujin

Legend
If the players can't figure out how difficult the task is, then the DM hasn't done a sufficiently good job of describing it.
 

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