Pathfinder 1E Rules Rules Rules! >:(

[Gfreak2x9]

I have a Pathfinder group that I run once a week and I am having a bit of moral conflict within myself. The group is very small, four players to be exact and I have a...well...hes not a power gamer, hes more of delusional player. He sees the game as a giant math puzzle. He doesn't role play nearly as much as he crunches numbers and it aggravates me. He also ends up being totally detached from his character to the point of not caring if said character dies. He says and I quote "I have some awesome builds I've been waiting to play!" Now don't get me wrong building a strong Character is necessary to the survival of the PC, however without personal connection, or role play to me it feels too...robotic. This player also loves to call me out on every little thing, lets say I decide to give a monster 10 more HP because I consider it a little to weak, he'll pull up that monster on his phone and read the stats to me insisting that I am "cheating at the game". I respond with "I am the DM, and I'm doing this in order to slightly raise the challenge rating. I have the authority to do so and I fail to see why you have such a problem with it." He goes on about numbers and exact rules, and tries to start a fight when I house rule things. For example in pathfinder you have to be level 2 to drop a shield in combat, I personally find this ridiculous and give it at level 1 instead. He argued with me for half and hour about this. I honestly don't see what I'm doing wrong, its not like I am dramatically altering the rules or anything! I have no idea how to handle this. He keeps challenging me and I'm about ready to threaten to kick him out of this group! But the softer side of me feels that there is a better solution than that. So guys...how would you handle this situation? Am I wrong? Is he wrong? Are we both wrong? I am a big advocate of being attached to your character! If you're not attached to your character you might as well just play WOW or something. I find that the table top RPGs help you get far more intimate, and immersed in the fantasy world. I feel like its really a chance to bring a you that might have been to life!

 

[Ironhead]

I'm of the opinion that a gaming group is a type of team, with everyone able to play a role; whether it's as a star or a supporting character - everyone is part of the story. If someone is so self-absorbed that they don't care about the story you're all telling collectively, then they don't deserve a place on the team, or in the group. I would expect, from what you've already told us about him, that if you try telling him that he will remove himself from the group on his own.

 

[Michael Silverbane]

Your play style diverges wildly from this player. This difference may be insurmountable. Are the other players closer in style to that of the player or to your own style?

Talk to the player outside of the game and let him know which behaviors you find to be disruptive. Inform him that he needs to alter these behaviors if he wishes to continue to participate in the game.

Do not allow this player (or any player, really) to stop the game for half an hour to argue about something. Also, you may want to forbid this player (and the other players, if it is a problem) from using their phones or computers at the game table). If a player has a rules issue, give them a small amount of time (two to five minutes) to articulate that issue, then make a ruling and carry on with the game. If the player continues to act out, eject him from the game.

 

[Rakusia]

firstly ive played with the mathmatical gamers, its their style, its how he has fun. you dont have to agree with it but theres nothing you can do about that(one game i was in the guy made us keep track of gold weight) for the other things. if he is a player he has no need(and it is game breaking if he knows everything about monsters) to have a monster Manuel(im more dnd 3.5 so just switch to pathfinder equivalent) dungeon masters guide or any access to information of the like. if he wants to look somethin up he should ask you. that is dm information. I dont even let my players know any stats for any enemy they face unless they cast a spell that reveals it or their character would know for one reason or another(druid or ranger knowing how strong a bear is i might explain the stats slightly)

 

[Greenfield]

One thing you said caught my eye. I have rules regarding players and books: You want to look up a spell that you're using or planning to use? Go for it.

You want to look up some item that you have, or are thinking about trying to buy/find? No problem.

You want to look up a monster because "We're in Orc country, and could run into them." I'm down with that.

You want to look up a spell, item or monster you're currently facing? BZZZZZT! No way. If you want to know, in character, you make an appropriate Knowledge check, and the DM will tell you what you know, based on the results.

Break that rule once, get a warning.

Break it too often, or argue the case, get a new character.

Break it habitually, get a new game.

Beyond that, the hit points listed in the book are an average for that number of hit dice with that bonus. They aren't carved in stone, they're there simply to make a DM's life easier. CON bonuses can vary, Hit Die rolls can vary, nothing about that character/race/creature is carved in stone. There's no reason why some of that race/species won't have more hit points than average, while others might have less. If he challenges that, tell him that that's how averages work, and that being a math guy he should understand that.

To the OP: I've never met you, but I know something important about you. You have a quality about you, a "something special" that says you will always have people willing to come to your table, to participate in the stories you and your group creat.

What is that quality? You're willing to DM.

That's it, plain and simple. Unless you're living in gamer hell, there will be other players around willing to join, to replace this particular jackass.

Now maybe I'm being hard on the guy. The thing is, it isn't just your fun that he's ruining. He's an annoyance for *everyone* at the table. Maybe it's okay with you if he wastes your time on the number crunching and rules arguments, but he's also wasting the time and ruining the fantasy of everyone else as well. It's good that you're considerate of his feelings, but also be considerate of the rest of your friends. Talk to the guy outside of the game, explain the issue, that the rules arguments and number crunching are leeching the fun out of the game.

And if game isn't fun, why are you doing it?

 

[Systole]

You don't have to be level 2 to drop a shield. Dropping a shield is a free action. You have to be level 2 to DRAW a shield as part of your move assuming you are not a ranger, fighter, paladin, or barbarian (or anyone with a +1 base attack bonus at first level).

To me, it sounds as if there are a couple problems.
1. Your power gamer is bad. It's one thing if the power gamer knows what he's talking about. If he's willing to argue for a half hour over a point where he's clearly and absolutely in the wrong, you want this guy the hell out of your group.
2. You (i.e. you the GM and the other players) seem to have a playstyle which is at odds with this guy. Nothing wrong with this -- some guys want RP, some guys want RNG. The trick is finding other people who want what you want. So it seems like perhaps he should find a different group.

My advice is just to go for the nuclear option and move on. Kick him out. Do it nicely if he's a friend or you'd feel uncomfortable being a d***. The reason I say this is that these things never get better. I mean that in the absolute sense of the word. I am almost 40. I have been working for 20 years and I have been playing RPGs for over 25. I have many times ended up playing/living/working/interacting with d-bags, but I have NEVER seen a 'sort of' d-bag spontaneously transmogrify into a wonderful person or a wonderful player. If you think that maybe somebody is 'sort of' a d-bag, what that means is that this guy is actually a complete d-bag but you're just trying really hard to think nice thoughts about him. If you want to be a good GM, sometimes that means being the bad guy and telling him that he's fired. Your players probably will never thank you for it, but they will appreciate it.

Also, I suggest you read the Five Geek Social Fallacies, because it feels like a few are in play here.

 

[Rakusia]

i agree with above. number crunching gaming okay he has the right to his fun. arguing with gm nope nuh uh sorry. i run a game with my frineds. one of which is my martial arts master. short temper able to beat me bloody. do i allow him to argue with me in the game? nope. when he started playing i calmly and nicely told him while he may be able to beat me physically when it came to the game if i sad he couldnt do something or something wasnt allowed thats the end of it. dm is the god of the game. no rule trumps dm. if the rights of the dm arent upheld then the game just doesnt work

 

[billd91]

I have a Pathfinder group that I run once a week and I am having a bit of moral conflict within myself. The group is very small, four players to be exact and I have a...well...hes not a power gamer, hes more of delusional player. He sees the game as a giant math puzzle. He doesn't role play nearly as much as he crunches numbers and it aggravates me. He also ends up being totally detached from his character to the point of not caring if said character dies. He says and I quote "I have some awesome builds I've been waiting to play!" Now don't get me wrong building a strong Character is necessary to the survival of the PC, however without personal connection, or role play to me it feels too...robotic. This player also loves to call me out on every little thing, lets say I decide to give a monster 10 more HP because I consider it a little to weak, he'll pull up that monster on his phone and read the stats to me insisting that I am "cheating at the game". I respond with "I am the DM, and I'm doing this in order to slightly raise the challenge rating. I have the authority to do so and I fail to see why you have such a problem with it." He goes on about numbers and exact rules, and tries to start a fight when I house rule things. For example in pathfinder you have to be level 2 to drop a shield in combat, I personally find this ridiculous and give it at level 1 instead. He argued with me for half and hour about this. I honestly don't see what I'm doing wrong, its not like I am dramatically altering the rules or anything! I have no idea how to handle this. He keeps challenging me and I'm about ready to threaten to kick him out of this group! But the softer side of me feels that there is a better solution than that. So guys...how would you handle this situation? Am I wrong? Is he wrong? Are we both wrong? I am a big advocate of being attached to your character! If you're not attached to your character you might as well just play WOW or something. I find that the table top RPGs help you get far more intimate, and immersed in the fantasy world. I feel like its really a chance to bring a you that might have been to life!

First - I'd like to say that there really isn't anything wrong with not being attached to a character. Ideally, you like them to be invested in each character's success (both on the battlefield and off), but it's also OK to be cheerful and accepting when one PC dies because it gives you a chance to try something else that you're itching to try.

Second - people can have different gaming styles and no single style is really more valid than another, though in our heart of hearts, I suspect we all feel our own styles are superior to ones that don't appreciate the aspects of the game we do. We have to accept that styles are personal things. They're neither right nor wrong - yet they may clash and be incompatible.

Third - just because a style or approach to the game isn't inherently wrong, behavior bad for the group and generally being a dick is wrong. That's not a product of specific approaches to the game and more a product of being unable to empathize for anyone else's different approach to the game and different goals in playing.

Check with the other players. If they too think this player's bickering is an annoyance, strongly consider playing without him.

 

[Empirate]

Have you shown your guy that other bit that is in the rules - the bit that is probably the most important rule in the whole book? You know the one, the actual rule saying that the DM is the final arbiter on the rules, even though everybody gets to say their bit? Let's see him argue with that. I'll quote it:

[h=2]The Most Important Rule[/h] The rules presented are here to help you breathe life into your characters and the world they explore. While they are designed to make your game easy and exciting, you might find that some of them do not suit the style of play that your gaming group enjoys. Remember that these rules are yours. You can change them to fit your needs. Most Game Masters have a number of “house rules” that they use in their games. The Game Master and players should always discuss any rules changes to make sure that everyone understands how the game will be played. Although the Game Master is the final arbiter of the rules, the Pathfinder RPG is a shared experience, and all of the players should contribute their thoughts when the rules are in doubt.

Important parts bolded. That is rules text, incontrovertible, inarguable.

Now your problem player obviously hasn't the first idea about what makes the actual roleplaying experience fun, which might be problematic when you quote this rule at him. It might also be enough reason to part ways (different playstyles, and all that - I'd seriously consider this). More problematically, he has no concept of the player/character divide: PC knowledge does not include monster stats, unless an appropriate knowledge check has been rolled. Even then, statistics like HP are unknowables in-game. Players probably ought not have that information at all.

Furthermore, arguing a point to the detriment of actually playing the game disrupts the fun for everybody. Even if it only disrupts your fun as a DM, that alone might be enough to make the game worse for everybody else: you're the DM, so much hinges on your motivation to provide a good game! Do NOT let him argue with you (or anybody else) while you're sitting at the table! The simple rule "my word is law at the table, but I'm willing to discuss rules interpretation out of game and change how I handle things in future sessions" might be enough to solve this. That's how a lot of people do it. In my experience, it works to keep player and DM frustration to acceptable levels most of the time.


Final point regarding group size: due to a dearth of players in my area, I've been forced to play with only three players for ages now. It's a good game. I'd love to have more players, but our game isn't worse off for the lack. So if the debate with your problem player leads to him leaving, don't worry too much about that.

 

[JeffB]

Players like that get shown the door. Yeah, they have a right to their fun, blah blah blah...just not at my table. I have no tolerance for that type of gamer. However I make it clear up front what my style is and what kind of game I run.