Rulings on Ray of enfeeblement

[Stalker0]

Of course, if you throw out a quickend ray of enfeeblement plus the evard's, then the fighter has a REALLY hard time making the grapple check

 

[Stalker0]

It's pretty easy to avoid cover in combat. Especially so if you're fighting Large sized or bigger enemies, which most meele-oriented monsters are at higher levels. A 15th level wizard with an 18 Dex (easily possible at that level) will only miss most Large or bigger creatures on a natural 1, even with the -4 penalty for firing into meele.

This is a big consideration as well, its not just classed creatures we are talking about. Big monsters tend to have big HD, which increases your saves.

Take the collossal scropion for example, its about as big brusier as you can get. Its will save is +13, which is pretty good at 12th level (its CR). Its touch AC, a 1

 

[Darklone]

I don't know if Improved Grapple is a "no brainer" for fighters (except possibly when using PHB feats only). Sure, they get lots of feats, but there are many good feats out there. Besides which, IG requires the Improved Unarmed Strike feat as a prerequisite.

Typically a fighter would be better served with that feat from Complete Warrior (can't remember the name right now) that allows an AOO for an attempted grapple (almost regardless of opponent's abilities) and not only deals damage, but that damage is added to the grapple check. On reflection, not sure if this would work with Evard's... But your other point stands about other options for Evard's.

You're right about the prerequisite.

The feat is Close Quarter Fighting.

Grog: Getting a will save or any other save does not mean you'll make it either. I can't say anything about your style of play, but mine is rather limited to levels lower than 12... and the players save DCs are ridiculously high. Add that most encounters have a good number of enemies instead of one very strong one... similar to my groups who are usually lots larger than the iconic 4 member group.
So yes, I usually play games with a number of limiting factors to the spell. But I think even one of these factors is already enough to make the spell rather useless compared to Scorching ray or even higher spells. Perhaps not useless, but far from overpowered.

 

[Legildur]

Thanks Darklone, I was experiencing brain fade on the feat name.

And our groups' experiences are very similar to yours in that larger than iconic groups and often facing multiple opponents.

I often like playing fringe characters - those that bring something unusual to the table when the DM least suspects it - so I favour monks, druids, and bards. If you are using Complete Warrior, monks get access to the Weakening Touch feat at 6th level, which allows you to strike an opponent and burn a Stunning Fist attempt to apply a -6 strength penalty to the opponent for 1 minute. That would stack with RoE and doesn't rely on a Fort save (like the Stunning Fist attempt would). This is obviously pretty handy against big bruisers and when setting up for a trip or disarm attempt within a Flurry of Blows.

 

[Grog]

Grog: Getting a will save or any other save does not mean you'll make it either. I can't say anything about your style of play, but mine is rather limited to levels lower than 12... and the players save DCs are ridiculously high.

It's pretty hard to get "ridiculously high" save DCs in a low-mid level campaign. Anyway, I don't have time to run through the math on this, so I'll just say that I don't think it's possible for a 10th level caster to crank their save DCs so high that their enemies can only succeed on a natural 20, at least not without a significant amount of non-core material. A fire giant (a CR 10 monster) has a +9 to will saves, so for a Hold Monster to have the same chance of working on him as a Ray of Enfeeblement, the save DC would have to be 29. Now there may be splatbooks and such that could get it to that level, but for core rules, a 10th level Wizard casting a Hold Monster is more likely to have a save DC of about 24 or so, and that's only if he has Greater Spell Focus in Enchantment. Against the fire giant, that gives the wizard a 70% chance to win the fight with one 5th level spell, versus a 95% chance to win the fight with a Ray of Enfeeblement (1st level spell). That's broken - there's no other way to say it.

 

[Slaved]

a 95% chance to win the fight with a Ray of Enfeeblement (1st level spell).

You might have a 95% chance to hit with the ray but how does that make you automatically win the fight?

Once you've hit 1/3 of the time you give a -3 penalty to hit and a -5 penalty to damage, 1/3 of the time you give a -4 penalty to hit and a -6 penalty to damage, and 1/3 of the time give a -5 penalty to hit and a -8 penalty to damage.

That is pretty rough for a pure melee brute, but he is far from dead.

In fact if the character that the giant was attacking instead had the feat which negated the bonus from power attack he might have gotten a bigger bonus without even having to spend an action and succeed at a touch attack to pull it off. Assuming that the giant power attacked for a few points of course.

 

[Grog]

You might have a 95% chance to hit with the ray but how does that make you automatically win the fight?

I already did the math on this. See post #87 in this thread. The meeler will probably inflict a little damage after being hit with the ray, but he isn't going to be a serious threat anymore. The PCs will walk all over him with no trouble at all.

 

[SlagMortar]

Large creatures have other advantages. The fire giant with its improved overrun feet and +18 modifier (or +13 after an average ray of enfeeblement opposed by strength check) could just run over the fighter and go after the wizard. A collossal scorpion could just grab the fighter with improved grab and kill him that way.

Edit: By the way, the CR 12 collossal scorpion before ray of enfeeblement has a +34 to hit with its claws and a +58 grapple check and +29 to hit with its sting which does 1d10 constitution damage with a fortitude save DC of 33. After an average ray of enfeeblement that is still +29 to hit with claws, +53 grapple check and +24 sting. Good luck telling your fighter to go defeat it with no more help after casting ray of enfeeblement on it.

 

[Darklone]

Grog, the fire giant with str 31 will still waste most PC fighters of that level in melee. He will need longer, but my PCs would rather cast Hideous Laughter twice with a real high chance of success instead of weakening the giant a bit and watch him stomp the wizard into the ground anyhow

Not to speak about SlagMortars example.

 

[Grog]

Edit: By the way, the CR 12 collossal scorpion before ray of enfeeblement has a +34 to hit with its claws and a +58 grapple check and +29 to hit with its sting which does 1d10 constitution damage with a fortitude save DC of 33. After an average ray of enfeeblement that is still +29 to hit with claws, +53 grapple check and +24 sting. Good luck telling your fighter to go defeat it with no more help after casting ray of enfeeblement on it.

That's a bad example, because the scorpion is already so ridiculously powerful in meele that lowering it's Strength by 8 or 10 points won't impact it much. That's like saying "That spell sucks because it wouldn't hurt the tarrasque very much."

For most meelers that PCs will face, Ray of Enfeeblement is a "we win" button. Again, I already did the math on this.

EDIT: And I should also add that the colossal monstrous scorpion is a very badly designed monster because it's very much an all-or-nothing opponent. It's CR 12, but it would annihilate even a 15th level party if they tried straight-up meele with it. However, it would pose no threat at all to a 9th level party if they had some means of flying. It's a bad example to use for just about anything IMO.