Ruthless Ruffian, Anyone ?

[thecasualoblivion]

Um, a Brutal Scoundrel can use Rattling attacks; so long as he has Combat Advantage he gets his bonus damage. A Ruthless Ruffian has to use a mace/club to get his bonus, so if you're doing ranged, Brutal Scoundrel's your bacon, not Ruthless Ruffian.

A Brutal Scoundrel can take Rattling attacks, but is not inherently focused on doing so. A Ruthless Ruffian is likely to take a lot of Rattling attacks no matter what they're doing, and it is very simple to take advantage of some things that key off of Rattling to get combat advantage for Ranged attacks. A Brutal Scoundrel has to take powers and options he wouldn't otherwise be taking if he was focusing on melee devastation. A Ruthless Ruffian can be a fantastic ranged attacker with minimal changes from what he'd be doing anyway.

A Brutal Scoundrel needs to deviate from his standard plan moreso than a Ruthless Ruffian.

 

[DracoSuave]

A Brutal Scoundrel's game plan is: Take Rogue Powers. Get Combat Advantage. ?????? Profit. Ruffian powers are Rogue Powers, so the Brutal Scoundrel isn't deviating from his plan one bit by taking them.

A Brutal Scoundrel can use his bonus with ranged attacks, and has more options available to him--including Rattling powers should he choose. There's even a couple Rattling powers that explicitly call out Brutal Scoundrel and give them more benefits. As well, there is at least one Rattling power that a Ruthless Ruffian -can't- use their bonus on. Yet a Brutal Scoundrel can just fine.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

A Ruthless Ruffian can be a fantastic ranged attacker with minimal changes from what he'd be doing anyway.

I don't understand where you're getting this from. The Ruthless Ruffian class feature reads "If you use a club or a mace to deliver an attack that has the rattling keyword, add your Strength modifier to the damage roll."

So unless you're actually using a club or a mace in the attack, you don't get the bonus damage. This means that the Ruthless Ruffian is no better at ranged than any other Rogue.

 

[Satori]

I like the IDEA of the "In your Face" brute Rogue that thematically differs from the dagger wielding skirmisher...

...but I have a hard time wrapping my head around what sort of build you would need for this type of PC.

Dex > Cha > Str?
-Cha affects more "RR Only" powers, but overall lacks the "Oomph" of Brutal Scoundrel's Class Trait.

Dex > Str > Cha?
-This sounds more viable, and leads me to lean towards a Brutal Scoundrel style build...but for some reason it just doesn't FEEL right.

Does anyone have any projected Ruthless Ruffian builds that have worked out for them? It seems like it would need a specific race and stat array combo to really shine.

 

[Wik]

I don't understand where you're getting this from. The Ruthless Ruffian class feature reads "If you use a club or a mace to deliver an attack that has the rattling keyword, add your Strength modifier to the damage roll."

So unless you're actually using a club or a mace in the attack, you don't get the bonus damage. This means that the Ruthless Ruffian is no better at ranged than any other Rogue.

You're looking at the wrong area. It's that the Ruffian is going to be taking those powers that focus on Rattling anyways, so that he can pick up a bow without having to spend powers/feats to get awesome damage with it. Meanwhile, your scoundrel will probably be taking powers that have a bonus for scoundrel builds - if he takes Rattling powers (and there's nothing that says he can't), he's losing out on his primary scoundrel build.

In other words, if you take a "Core" scoundrel and a "core" Ruffian (in both cases, taking powers that grant a bonus for characters of the specific build), then the Ruffian will be better at ranged combat.

...or so the claim goes. I haven't actually looked into it, myself. I'm just explaining his point.

 

[Baumi]

I don't get it. The RR has no more ranged weapon proficiencies than other rogues. Also the rattling powers have weapon limitations like any other rogue powers (light blades, slings, crossbows) and since bows are not included he couldn't use these powers and therefore will not get his str-bonus.

Even if he would use rattling powers with slings/crossbows he would only get a few points (str) more damage than the BS if he had no combat advantage, which is not exactly a good position for a rogue...

 

[Cadfan]

Um, a Brutal Scoundrel can use Rattling attacks; so long as he has Combat Advantage he gets his bonus damage. A Ruthless Ruffian has to use a mace/club to get his bonus, so if you're doing ranged, Brutal Scoundrel's your bacon, not Ruthless Ruffian.

What he's saying is this- a brutal scoundrel who tried to do what you're suggesting would have to take powers which, in melee, kind of suck for a Brutal Scoundrel. The Ruthless Ruffian is optimized to use those powers effectively in melee.

 

[Josep]

What he's saying is this- a brutal scoundrel who tried to do what you're suggesting would have to take powers which, in melee, kind of suck for a Brutal Scoundrel. The Ruthless Ruffian is optimized to use those powers effectively in melee.

I'm really confused about this logic that says a Brutal Rogue is worse than an equivalently built Ruthless Ruffian. Whatever power the Ruffian is using, the Scoundrel could also use. If a rogue is in melee, he ought to have CA (presumably from flanking), so the Scoundrel is adding strength to the sneak attack, which is the same as adding strength to the rattling power.

In general:

• The rogue is weak without CA, so if the ruffian is frequently attacking without CA, something is very wrong.
• The +3 rapier (melee) or +4 dagger (melee/ranged) are generally superior in my opinion to a +2 club/mace because of the higher chance to hit.
• At range, the Ruffian can't throw a weapon anyway, so the Scoundral is using the same weapon. (The rogue does want sneak attack damage, right?)
• The 'special' attribute for a handful of Ruthless Ruffian powers don't justify picking those powers. I also think the same about Brutal Scoundral specials - they often are not the best pick.
• Deft Strike: One of the best ranged methods of getting CA from stealth, and the Brutal Scoundral can add strength to the sneak attack damage. It's nice not to have to use a rattling power.

Don't get me wrong: I like the flavor/concept of the Ruthless Ruffian. But as implemented, I think I'd prefer the flexibility of the Brutal Scoundral in practice. I just don't see enough special powers for the Ruthless Ruffian that make me think "Oh, that is so much better if I'd be a Ruthless Ruffian."

 

[DracoSuave]

The only power I can think of that a Brutal Scoundrel would avoid from the Ruthless list because of attribute-based stuff:

Compel the Craven (Charisma based movement forced afterwards)

The only other reason a Brutal Scoundrel wouldn't take it is because they won't get the Ruthless Ruffian: Bonus some powers have. But none of the Ruthless list outside Compel the Craven specifically calls out an attribute the Brutal Scoundrel isn't building, and Compel the Craven's movement is just fine with just one square, if you have nearby players with opportunity attacks at the ready.

This illusion that Rattling powers are unusable by a Brutal Scoundrel is just that, an illusion. The Ruthless Ruffian's advantage isn't the Rattling deal, but the fact he's bringing a 1d8 weapon without a feat.