Ryan Dancey -- Hasbro Cannot Deauthorize OGL

I reached out to the architect of the original Open Gaming License, former VP of Wizard of the Coast, Ryan Dancey, and asked his opinion about the current plan by WotC to 'deauthorize' the current OGL in favour of a new one.

He responded as follows:

Yeah my public opinion is that Hasbro does not have the power to deauthorize a version of the OGL. If that had been a power that we wanted to reserve for Hasbro, we would have enumerated it in the license. I am on record numerous places in email and blogs and interviews saying that the license could never be revoked.

Ryan also maintains the Open Gaming Foundation.

As has been noted previously, even WotC in its own OGL FAQ did not believe at the time that the licence could be revoked.

7. Can't Wizards of the Coast change the License in a way that I wouldn't like?

Yes, it could. However, the License already defines what will happen to content that has been previously distributed using an earlier version, in Section 9. As a result, even if Wizards made a change you disagreed with, you could continue to use an earlier, acceptable version at your option. In other words, there's no reason for Wizards to ever make a change that the community of people using the Open Gaming License would object to, because the community would just ignore the change anyway.

​

 

[qstor]

He didn’t write it! Lawyers wrote it, he oversaw it.

My bad, sir.

 

[qstor]

I'm a US lawyer but don't do IP work. I totally support Paizo. Etc.
All's I'm saying is that it's NOT cut and dry.

Dancey says is irrevocable but that word isn't in the OGL 1.0a. Perpetual doesn't mean irrevocable. See UK case BMS Computer Solutions Ltd. V AB Agri.

Any court case probably in US Federal Court would probably apply State of Washington law or US federal IP law. Federal copyright doesn't favor "forever" contracts neither do other US jurisdictions like Texas.

 

[Maxperson]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

The cruelty is intentional as it's neccessary to exploit all the things, to achieve the profit.

This is false. If I buy a can of soda for 50 cents and sell it to you for 75 cents, you have not been exploited even though I have achieved profit.

 

[Henry]

My bad, sir.

That’s why I’m careful to use the term “originator” when referring to Ryan, because based on articles he’s written, he’s definitely the one who started and championed the idea within WotC pre-buyout. (And the one who was jokingly called crazy at the time, according to him )

 

[darjr]

Throughout Y2K I operated a mailing list called ogf-l (actually I operated two, the other was ogf-d20-l for discussions about the D20 trademark license).

Starting at the GAMA Trade Show in the spring we engaged with as many 3rd parties as we could to get as much feedback as we could on the text of the two licenses. A lot of the people who participated in those discussions became publishers of various open gaming projects.

The biggest change was that the initial idea was one license that was both a trademark and a copyright license. That's close to what the leaks suggest that 1.1 will try to be. We abandoned that approach to make both licenses much simpler and easier to understand; but the result was that I spent close two years starting messages with "there are two licenses".

The OGL is a very simple document so the goal was to try an make it as "plain English" as we could while still checking all the boxes needed to make it fit for purpose. There are still some bits I wish had been further reduced but the legal team got to a point where they just didn't want to make further cuts; so we now all get to learn the definition of "potate".

The people who participated in those discussions were important to the process and without their input the license would not have worked as well as it did.

Unfortunately I lost my personal copies of the ogf-l and ogf-d20-l mailing list archives. I suspect that there are people who kept all those messages though. I further suspect that they might resurface as a part of discovery pursuant to litigation so I'm looking forward to reading what 23 years ago me said about a bunch of stuff.

Thank you so much for this!

This leads me to ask if any of the drafts of the OGL and d20 license were ever as bad as this OGL 1.1 document.

Were there threats? WotC ownership of everything in a third party product? etc?

Also I hope someone reading that has a copy of those lists can send you a copy.

 

[eyeheartawk]

This is false. If I buy a can of soda for 50 cents and sell it to you for 75 cents, you have not been exploited even though I have achieved profit.

I was speaking somewhat specifically, but sure.

What about the third world aluminum miner who mined the metal for that can, he isn't being exploited and working in sub-optimal conditions being payed next to nothing?

It's always there. If not right at the top, certainly down the line. But that's really just a discussion about economics generally.

In this case, the cruelty they are inflicting to all these people who make money from the previous OGL is 100% intentional.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I was speaking somewhat specifically, but sure.

What about the third world aluminum miner who mined the metal for that can, he isn't being exploited and working in sub-optimal conditions being payed next to nothing?

It's always there. If not right at the top, certainly down the line. But that's really just a discussion about economics generally.

In this case, the cruelty they are inflicting to all these people who make money from the previous OGL is 100% intentional.

this is spiraling into political economic theory (and as much as I would LOVE to debate you guys) this is not the place to really go in depth.

 

[Henry]

I'm a US lawyer but don't do IP work. I totally support Paizo. Etc.
All's I'm saying is that it's NOT cut and dry.

Dancey says is irrevocable but that word isn't in the OGL 1.0a. Perpetual doesn't mean irrevocable. See UK case BMS Computer Solutions Ltd. V AB Agri.

Any court case probably in US Federal Court would probably apply State of Washington law or US federal IP law. Federal copyright doesn't favor "forever" contracts neither do other US jurisdictions like Texas.

The one thing that gives me hope is Alan Bushlow’s take on it (the lawyer which was consulted in the Roll for Combat YouTube segment) in that he suggests that, in a contract for which there is consideration given, as is the case of the OGL 1.0, that courts have been less likely to say that it can be automatically revoked by terms not in the license because of the expectations of both parties, whereas if it were worded without consideration (basically gratis) then it has been more likely. I’d have to revisit the discussion again, but that was my basic understanding of it.

but in the end, all our discussions won’t mean Jack because unless WotC relents, a judge is very likely going to have to solve this thing.

 

[Maxperson]

I was speaking somewhat specifically, but sure.

What about the third world aluminum miner who mined the metal for that can, he isn't being exploited and working in sub-optimal conditions being payed next to nothing?

It's always there. If not right at the top, certainly down the line. But that's really just a discussion about economics generally.

In this case, the cruelty they are inflicting to all these people who make money from the previous OGL is 100% intentional.

Sure. People CAN be(and often are) exploited, but that's not a property of profit, but of greed.

 

[eyeheartawk]

Sure. People CAN be(and often are) exploited, but that's not a property of profit, but of greed.

I don't agree.

But rather than have a nuanced discussion of competing economic models let's settle this the old fashioned way.

You float over there by that mountain, and I'll float over here by this one. Then, we'll both be enveloped by colored balls of energy in which we will clench our fists and yell. Then we'll fly at each other exchanging kicks and punches in an extremely rapid fashion until one of us gets thrown into the horizon or a nearby mountain. Going by previous examples this should take anywhere from 4-8 episodes of time.