D&D 1E Sages & Hit Dice

ilgatto

How inconvenient
Seems reasonable. I'm guessing that with 8d4 HD, Gary was indeed thinking of them as functionally 8th level NPCs. The 1E DMG definitely plays up how wide the knowledge of a sage is, and how expensive they are. They're definitely portrayed as elite people and of rarified value.

If anything, it makes the sage unique among the DMG1 hirelings for some unfathomable reason. I've always wondered whether he was derived from some effort made by a player or DM in the days when the rules were still a bit of a free-for-all and led to such things as the Illusionist (Peter Aronson) and the Monk (forgot who).

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Mannahnin

Scion of Murgen (He/Him)
If anything, it makes the sage unique among the DMG1 hirelings for some unfathomable reason. I've always wondered whether he was derived from some effort made by a player or DM in the days when the rules were still a bit of a free-for-all and led to such things as the Illusionist (Peter Aronson) and the Monk (forgot who).

View attachment 154869
Nice image. :)

I think there must be some "non-magical super-erudite scholar" trope he was referencing, but I'm not sure what the source might be.

It also slightly reminds me of Dream Park. If you recall, the VR LARP game in those books had a Loremaster class, which was more or less the most important character type and default party leader. It did include some spellcasting in a pinch, though; more of a true Gandalf archetype than a Vancian wizard archetype. The Loremaster was generally also a specially knowledgeable PLAYER expected to be widely-read in metagame source material and skilled at figuring out the setting and puzzles and references the game master was using.
 


ilgatto

How inconvenient
Nice image. :)

I think there must be some "non-magical super-erudite scholar" trope he was referencing, but I'm not sure what the source might be.

It also slightly reminds me of Dream Park. If you recall, the VR LARP game in those books had a Loremaster class, which was more or less the most important character type and default party leader. It did include some spellcasting in a pinch, though; more of a true Gandalf archetype than a Vancian wizard archetype. The Loremaster was generally also a specially knowledgeable PLAYER expected to be widely-read in metagame source material and skilled at figuring out the setting and puzzles and references the game master was using.

Dream Park may be too late as a source for the 1E sage (published 1981), unless it was Niven who came up with the idea somehow? Did EGG and Niven know each other before DMG1 was published?

This got me thinking, though. Since I haven't found an OD&D or 1E source with an explanation for the sage, maybe EGG (or someone else) got the idea from some literary source? Didn't EGG use to say that he was inspired by "pulp fantasy" and such luminaries as Poul Anderson, Howard, Vance, and Lovecraft c.s.? Maybe there is a sage-like individual or notion in one of the books he read? Can't think of one, though, and it isn't Vance in any case.

An amalgam of such learned writers as M. A. R. Barker, Tolkien, and M. R. James? Naaah.

Some extremely obscure source?

Maybe a bit of a long shot.
 


ilgatto

How inconvenient
So David Arneson originally created the Sage Class for early Blackmoor. It was part of his material to be included in Supplement II, but Tim Kask decided to make it an NPC instead.
Bloody h By Ningauble! There he is, an actual character class in a list of "Character Types" on page 51 in the First Fantasy Campaign! And he's interested in wine, women, wealth, and fame!

Looks like the "hobbies" section may be the basis for the 1E sage fields of study?

Well, well, well. Back to the drawing board it is.
 

Mannahnin

Scion of Murgen (He/Him)
Dream Park may be too late as a source for the 1E sage (published 1981), unless it was Niven who came up with the idea somehow? Did EGG and Niven know each other before DMG1 was published?
Agreed; Dream Park is far too late to be an inspiration for D&D or 1E AD&D. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. I suspect that Niven & Barnes were inspired by Gandalf and possibly by D&D Sages, the latter maybe also by way of experience with veteran D&D players at convention games.

In retrospect the Dream Park parties, usually a large crew of players led by a Loremaster, kind of remind me of late-70s era D&D tournament play/modules. Where the modules often had a suggested group size of 8-10 players (some tournaments got as big as 12), and a Caller was actually a useful thing to have for time efficiency.
 

ilgatto

How inconvenient
In retrospect the Dream Park parties, usually a large crew of players led by a Loremaster, kind of remind me of late-70s era D&D tournament play/modules. Where the modules often had a suggested group size of 8-10 players (some tournaments got as big as 12), and a Caller was actually a useful thing to have for time efficiency.

I'm sorry to say that I never really experienced the "mega-(competition)-dungeon-crawls-at-mega-conventions" that were happening in the US when I started playing way back when. I suppose that, at the time, the people playing (A)D&D in Holland could probably fit on a small stamp and all you could buy product-wise depended on whether the owner of the one shop that sold them had been to the UK or not that year.

Still, never too old to learn and all that and we have been sort of re-living the feeling for the past year in the shape of a seriously old-school random dungeon crawl. Ten PCs, two per player (unheard of for decades) and it is truly exciting to see people constantly on their guard for pit traps and then die from a poisoned needle in a treasure container - to subsequently be resurrected by the 18th-level Cleric with Wisdom 18 in the village nearby, who, of course, only exist for this purpose. I find it fascinating and refreshing to dig into the 1E rules and remember and implement them as they were meant for dungeon-crawling purposes - to walk back along the trail created by the game as it developed. Quirks in the rules are exposed (sages); the excellence of the DMG1 as a work of reference is confirmed again; the pretty coherent mechanics of the 1E game and their basis in table-top warfare shine through; mappers and, as you say, callers rise from the grave.

The PCs are confronted with the fact that everything costs money (and usually A LOT of it); that they must train before they can actually advance in level and get no further XP until they have done so; that they can only die so many times because resurrection has its limits; that jewelry is the thing to find; that "men are the worst monsters" (DMG1, p. 21); that stirges, troglodytes, and even shriekers are to be avoided at all costs at lower levels; that the one-day trek to the village is a serious problem because wilderness encounters do not care what level they are (phase spiders at 1st level anyone?); that dwarves are the way to go for dungeon crawls.

In a sense, it is quite liberating that nobody cares that the local inn has long since become way too small to house the ever-growing army of NPCs required for all manner of purposes (e.g., training PCs); that the village expands with each session to comply with the needs of the party; to put a city "a week's travel from the village" just because the PCs ask about one; to see the "campaign world" grow in reaction to the questions of the players instead of there being one to begin with.

It all leads to many interesting situations and dynamics, perhaps especially so for experienced players and DMs.

Anyway.

Musings.
 
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