D&D 1E Sages & Hit Dice

[ilgatto]

Amici,

Having had to roll up some sages recently, I am having trouble deciding how many levels/Hit Dice a sage has, mainly for the purpose of calculating XP and determining saving throws.

DMG1 p. 32 says that sages have 8d4 hit points. Does that make them 8-HD/level creatures? That seems a lot of XP for a largely non-combatant (typically senior?) citizen.

Does one use a sage's spell-casting "talents" as a basis? Then why 8d4 hit points? Also, the fact that sages have "talents" doesn't seem to suggest that they ever had a character class. Furthermore, as above, this may lead to a lot of XP for what a sage is.

Does one treat a sage as a 0-level individual? Then why 8d4 hp?

Although I may have overlooked something, I cannot find an answer in PHB1 and DMG1 - or any older source for that matter.

Does anyone have a suggestion?

ilgatto

 

[James Gasik]

So just reading the rules for Sages in the 1e DMG, I would suggest the Magic-User attack matrix and saving throws of an 8th level character, as they share the d4 Hit Die*, and their only mentioned offensive ability is possible spell knowledge.

*Monks use d4's too, but Sages don't seem like they are intended to be physical combatants. Some Sages have Clerical or Druidic powers, but their combat abilities are probably not on par with those classes.

I do recall an article in Dragon about Sages in 1e, but I don't recall which issue, so you'd be better off consulting...um...a Sage on that topic.

There is a Sage stat block somewhere I recall seeing, a dual-classed Fighter/Sage. If I can remember where it is, that might provide some insight.

 

[ilgatto]

I do recall an article in Dragon about Sages in 1e, but I don't recall which issue, so you'd be better off consulting...um...a Sage on that topic.

I'd be interested to know about this article. The index in Dragon 112 doesn't seem to mention any such articles.

 

[James Gasik]

Sorry I was thinking of The Scribe from Dragon #62.

 

[ilgatto]

Sorry I was thinking of The Scribe from Dragon #62.

Looks like Mr. Greenwood may have been confronted with a similar problem re Hit Dice for NPCs. I suppose it would be reasonable to assume that he based his scribe on the DMG1 p. 33 "(expert) hireling" scribe and that he "solved the problem" by having the scribe attack as a 1st-level Fighter and then make saving throws as a [scribe level] Fighter.
However, I'm still having trouble with the rationale behind the latter. I can see why a scribe (as an entity without a characters class) would have to make his saving throws as a Fighter but I can't see why he would be allowed to make them as a high-level Fighter when he gets to the higher levels. I assume that high-level Fighters (and other PC classes) get to get better saves at higher levels because they spend their lives confronting the horrors and challenges of tombs and descents into the depths of the earth, which isn't really where I'd see a scribe spend any amount of time, not in the least because he is an NPC?

Still, I have just been informed that this post has earned me a "keeps coming back award" and I suppose we could consider Mr. Greenwood a semi-"official" source, so I may be well on my way.

 

[James Gasik]

I think ultimately this is just one of those areas where you aren't going to get an official ruling and will have to go with what makes sense to you. Nobody is going to bust down your door saying you're running Sages wrong- in fact, I've rarely encountered them even when I was playing earlier D&D.

My early DM's were too focused on getting us into the adventure and made heavy use of modules and Dungeon Magazine content, so a lot of the information gathering aspect of the game was handwaved.

 

[ilgatto]

I think ultimately this is just one of those areas where you aren't going to get an official ruling and will have to go with what makes sense to you. Nobody is going to bust down your door saying you're running Sages wrong- in fact, I've rarely encountered them even when I was playing earlier D&D.

My early DM's were too focused on getting us into the adventure and made heavy use of modules and Dungeon Magazine content, so a lot of the information gathering aspect of the game was handwaved.

Thought as much. Have come up with all kinds of solutions over the years, with treating them as 0-level NPCs with saving throws as per F1 + "spell-casting talent" and ignoring the 8d4 hp being the final incarnation.

I was just hoping that someone would point me to some (obscure) rule I may have missed (or perhaps the rationale behind the sage having 8d4 hp), so that I could finally sleep easy.

BTW you'd be surprised as to the reasons for people busting down doors these days.

 

[GreyLord]

Thought as much. Have come up with all kinds of solutions over the years, with treating them as 0-level NPCs with saving throws as per F1 + "spell-casting talent" and ignoring the 8d4 hp being the final incarnation.

I was just hoping that someone would point me to some (obscure) rule I may have missed (or perhaps the rationale behind the sage having 8d4 hp), so that I could finally sleep easy.

BTW you'd be surprised as to the reasons for people busting down doors these days.

Well, not AD&D but 2e, they had a full on NPC class.

 

[Mannahnin]

Thought as much. Have come up with all kinds of solutions over the years, with treating them as 0-level NPCs with saving throws as per F1 + "spell-casting talent" and ignoring the 8d4 hp being the final incarnation.

I was just hoping that someone would point me to some (obscure) rule I may have missed (or perhaps the rationale behind the sage having 8d4 hp), so that I could finally sleep easy.

Seems reasonable. I'm guessing that with 8d4 HD, Gary was indeed thinking of them as functionally 8th level NPCs. The 1E DMG definitely plays up how wide the knowledge of a sage is, and how expensive they are. They're definitely portrayed as elite people and of rarified value.

 

[ilgatto]

Well, not AD&D but 2e, they had a full on NPC class.

Yeah, not to keen on the DMGR8 sages, nor, indeed, "NPC classes". For one thing, one might ask how a 14th-level Apothecary has ever managed to acquire 1,250,000 XP. And then there's the notion that an Apothecary can "range from the village druggist to the shaman herbalist to the legendary alchemist".
Not for me, I'm afraid.