D&D 5E Sages

Quickleaf

Legend
[MENTION=20323]Quickleaf[/MENTION] I like what you have done.
Perhaps what might be needed is a Lesser and Greater NPC-types just for overall completeness.

Thanks! Many NPCs don't need stats (as others noted), but it's really hard to predict when a particular NPC's stats/mechanics will become important for any given gaming group. Having some creative stats at least gives a DM something to base his or her own homebrew on.

This would also be handy for a conversion of UK4 When a Star Falls. Thanks!
Cheers!

If I yoink this, I'd drop the spellcasting completely and lower the hit die to 3. That is to say, I really like the Sage Specialty and the Read Magic bit is cool, and still lets the Sage cast any spell . . . if I give him the scroll.

So, uh *yoink*

Thank you.

Absolutely. I am trying to encompass many archetypes into one stat block without making it balloon into something unwieldy.

I am not sure why you need any specific rules for what a sage can do to be honest. To me, the question "Why are the players consulting a sage" provides me with all that is needed.

A sage can just be any NPC that has the knowledge the PCs need to accomplish X. Unless you plan on the players getting into combat with the sage, there seems to be little point in creating a bunch of stats that will never be used.

Generally, I agree that "An NPC who has knowledge the PCs need/want" doesn't necessarily need any stats or special rules. However, I'd argue there's a difference between that NPC and the D&D "Sage." As far as I can tell, Sages have been semi-mythical figures in D&D and its source material...think the Seven Sages of Greeve, the Vedic Rishis, the Rabbis of the Talmud, Jiang Ziya, Mentor in the Odyssey, etc. It's those kind of characters I believe Gygax had in mind when he originally penned that part of the DMG giving them spells and making them expensive to consult.

As far as how useful stat blocks are to a DM... personally, I often refer to stat blocks in non-combat situations, but YMMV. I'm working on an adventure that may involve teaming up with, or seeking varying sorts of aid, from a sage; so in that case, having a clearer picture of what the sage is capable of certainly is useful to me.

I don't feel the need to flesh out all my NPCs, but a few things to consider:

Not all sages should be spellcasters, despite the suggestion in the 1E DMG. Remember, in 1E all priests were clerics (or druids), because they didn't have a real concept of NPC classes (at least not official ones; the Dragon was full of them). Just like the Acolyte is now a background (as is the Sage), it shouldn't grant them class abilities.

Sages are also specialists; by giving them a big bonus to all knowledge skills, you're making them generalists. A better method would be to give expertise to only their specialty, then add 1-2 secondary skills that have a normal bonus. Possibly give them advantage on certain specialized checks (e.g. a specialist on the planes would have advantage on the Arcana check that they have expertise in).

Remember that you really shouldn't leave important information to chance. If you roll for the NPC, there's a chance of failure that might derail your adventure.

Indeed, neither do I. My thinking is that if a "sage" (lower case 's') does not having Spellcasting or special abilities (such as Read Magic), then that's the sort of NPC that can be left up to the DM to ad lib numbers for if it ever comes up.

As far as "knowledge" skills go...that's a very limited design space, because it's designed to be used on the player side. A DM can make up whatever number they want for a NPC's Arcana skill, for example, because all that matters is what the NPC can tell the PCs about, say, the portal to the Abyss they're searching for. If the DM already decides the NPC has that information, the Arcana skill is irrelevant; the NPC either has it or they don't.

What's more interesting are special abilities the NPC can draw upon which might help the PCs, such as an "occultist" identifying that a wight is susceptible to silver or a "scribe" crafting spell scrolls. I think of these a bit like those Unearthed Arcana feats which were skill proficiency plus.

1. How about contact other plane? Actually, one good use of Specialties might be to expand the spell list.
Yeah, I could certainly see an occultist knowing contact other plane in lieu of legend lore.

2. What is a "magic map" and why is there an asterisk after it?
Sorry, that was short-hand for a more involved homebrew system. I'll probably just cut the cartographer from the list of specialties.

3. For some reason I feel icky giving a creature a higher spellcaster level than its hit dice. If it were up to me, I'd increase the hit dice to 9d8, and then lower the Constitution to 9 (-1), leaving the Sage with 31 hit points.
Yep, that works too.

4. Natural Philosopher and Occultist seem to give benefits that most sages already have? Is identifying weaknesses supposed to be automatic for them or something?
Yes, it's supposed to be automatic. I was going for brevity rather than exhaustive rules writing. Perhaps your suggestion to separate the specialties as their own sidebar will help resolve that.

There's a risk when creating specific rules for things which may already be assumed via skill checks, and that risk is whittling away at the general capabilities of most characters. Generally, I'm very cautious of such situations when creating player-side rules. But this being for a NPC felt different.

5. I feel kinda sorry for the Folklorist/Historian since they get no goodies. Maybe they should get some sort of upgrade too. Maybe instead of making the Specialty part of the stat block, you could make it an optional thing in a sidebar (like the Swarm of Insects variants in the MM) -- so vanilla sages aren't a result of a random roll, they're a choice by the DM to not partake of the Specialty subsystem.
Good idea :)

6. Consider giving the sage the background feature of the Sage background: if they don't know a piece of lore, they know where to find it. (I.e., "PCs, go forth on an adventure.")
I did consider that, but avoided it because Background features generally are player-side rules. Essentially, if I gave that background trait to a Sage NPC, I'd be creating two DM ruling points: First, ruling whether the NPC knows something. Second, if they don't, ruling who else the NPC is aware of with that knowledge. In other words, including such a trait would be wasted space amounting to: "DM, make up what you want that feels sage-y."

Going that route seems to feed back into the objection: Why is a Sage stat block useful/needed to a DM?

IMO the utility of a stat block comes from the interesting things the creature can do, and the new options it opens for the game which a DM might not think about on his or her own. For example, the Read Scrolls trait opens up a new dimension of the game by introducing a NPC who can "read text without triggering any protective magic" – right away, that could make for an interesting adventure hook or plot twist.
 

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bedir than

Full Moon Storyteller
Hey, that explanation about the differing spell level and hit dice was amazing. It showed an amount of thought and effort put into an NPC that is uncommon. I tend to micro-stat my NPCs in a way that gives me some idea of combat abilities, but just in a way in case everything in the social encounter falls apart. I find that by thinking about 1st/2nd tier NPCs as if they were players I gain more insight into motivations and history.

I dig the sage on a warlock frame, and think the spells you chose are appropriate. It's almost like a hybrid diviner/warlock. It fits the history/lore.
 

Satyrn

First Post
IMO the utility of a stat block comes from the interesting things the creature can do, and the new options it opens for the game which a DM might not think about on his or her own. For example, the Read Scrolls trait opens up a new dimension of the game by introducing a NPC who can "read text without triggering any protective magic" – right away, that could make for an interesting adventure hook or plot twist.
I was finding that part of Read Magic to be iffy, something I might drop from my yoinked copy, but this thoroughly convinces me to keep it in.
 

WaterRabbit

Explorer
Generally, I agree that "An NPC who has knowledge the PCs need/want" doesn't necessarily need any stats or special rules. However, I'd argue there's a difference between that NPC and the D&D "Sage." As far as I can tell, Sages have been semi-mythical figures in D&D and its source material...think the Seven Sages of Greeve, the Vedic Rishis, the Rabbis of the Talmud, Jiang Ziya, Mentor in the Odyssey, etc. It's those kind of characters I believe Gygax had in mind when he originally penned that part of the DMG giving them spells and making them expensive to consult.

But at that point you are now talking about a class like Cleric, Druid, or Wizard or a multiclass version of one -- like Elminster. Or you are creating something unique, since a single background/class will not apply to each of them.

Even among the Seven Sages of Greece, no one class or background is applicable to all of them. To me the abilities of NPC sages is more of an ad hoc assignment.

Also, having low-level NPCs have access to a high level spell they can only cast ritually at great cost isn't really a problem for me.

Again it comes down to why the PCs are interacting with the Sage? If they are looking for knowledge about a subject, you as the DM decide if they know if and what the cost is for imparting it. If they are looking for a spell to be cast, you as the DM have already decided if they can cast it and at what cost (by cost I mean options more than just gold -- could be a quest or a sacrifice, etc.)

In all cases, the sage is present to serve the story or setting. If the sage really needs a stat block, then one of the current classes is going to be necessary.

Otherwise, why stop at sage? Shouldn't we define NPC weapon/armor smiths with stat blocks? They fulfill the same role as sages as well with respect to their craft. A sage is a specialist in a type of knowledge just the same as a weaponsmith. Weaponsmiths also have mystic counterparts in stories too.

To me it would be much more useful to have a list of NPC specialists and the type of goods/services/knowledge they could provide and perhaps a ranking like apprentice/journeyman/master/grandmaster require to provide it.
 

Quickleaf

Legend
To me it would be much more useful to have a list of NPC specialists and the type of goods/services/knowledge they could provide and perhaps a ranking like apprentice/journeyman/master/grandmaster require to provide it.

Sure, I think that could help many DMs. Unfortunately, such an undertaking is outside the scope of my current projects and limited time. If you tackle it, post a link!
 

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