Sailing without a crew

[Quasqueton]

In response to some folks who read more in my words than I posted:

The PCs were on the ship for 2 game sessions. It is not a sea-going campaign.

They "negotiated" with the slavers/pirates and got just enough on deck to run the ship while the PCs and some passenger NPCs watched them.

All in all, it was a fun adventure. They wisely avoided killing off the crew in the initial battle, and were then able to use them to get to port safely. I was quite proud of the Players and PCs for overcoming the challenge.

Quasqueton

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

And telling a PC "no, only the NPC's can do that" is a sure-fire way to kill fun.

That's your error.

It's not, "Only the NPCs can do this."

It's "Only those people who are trained can do this. What? You guys decided to capture a boat at sea without planning on how to get it back to shore? Sounds like a dilemma to me. Maybe you'll need to release a few of the crew. Say, doesn't Jarj have a whole bunch of ranks in Diplomacy and Bluff?"

Alternatively, it's "Only those people who are trained can do this. Wasn't Sammel a marine in the King's Navy for a couple of years? Looks like he's your best chance of getting this boat back safely."

Alternatively, it's "Only those people who are trained can do this. Doesn't Melicor the Black know how to summon water elementals? Maybe they can help drag the boat."

Alternatively, it's "Only those people who are trained can do this. Doesn't Fitzwuld carry a Horn of the Tritons? Maybe they can help - for a price."

Etc.

In other words, if the PCs had planned ahead properly - by hiring a prize crew, etc. - then they wouldn't have this problem. Since they didn't, they get to improvise and use the abilities they do have to overcome this rather unique challenge.

And Survival still doesn't let you steer the carriage.

 

[Saeviomagy]

That's your error.

It's not, "Only the NPCs can do this."

It's "Only those people who are trained can do this. What? You guys decided to capture a boat at sea without planning on how to get it back to shore? Sounds like a dilemma to me. Maybe you'll need to release a few of the crew. Say, doesn't Jarj have a whole bunch of ranks in Diplomacy and Bluff?"

In terms of the survival proficiency, you're proposing last-minute changes to the rules that say "only people with this new skill can do this. And you don't have it. Guess these NPC's I've whipped up do, so they get to do the job, not you".

Alternatively, it's "Only those people who are trained can do this. Wasn't Sammel a marine in the King's Navy for a couple of years? Looks like he's your best chance of getting this boat back safely."

Alternatively, it's "Only those people who are trained can do this. Doesn't Melicor the Black know how to summon water elementals? Maybe they can help drag the boat."

Alternatively, it's "Only those people who are trained can do this. Doesn't Fitzwuld carry a Horn of the Tritons? Maybe they can help - for a price."

I agree entirely with these. Hence the "if the PC's come up with a plan I like, they can feel free to run with it".

However "sailing the ship" is likely to be more of a case of "you muck around with the ship for a couple of hours - someone needs to give me a DC 15 wisdom check since you don't have profession(sailor). Oh, you failed? well, you'll need a couple of hours to try again"

and

"well, you've got plenty of climb and balance, so no problem working up among the rigging"

and

"Yes, your survival skill allows you to know roughly which way it is to port"

As opposed to some people's stances which seem to say "nuh uh, no way, not gonna work without profession(sailor), profession(navigator), and you can't cook your food without profession(cook) either".

Etc.

In other words, if the PCs had planned ahead properly - by hiring a prize crew, etc. - then they wouldn't have this problem. Since they didn't, they get to improvise and use the abilities they do have to overcome this rather unique challenge.

And Survival still doesn't let you steer the carriage.

But it does tell you which way it should be going to get back home. Even if it's floating out at sea. Some people seem to think that it can't.

Hell, some people seem to think that people with survival possess the marvelous ability to walk to a point that they can see and nothing more. And that people without it get lost doing that 75% of the time.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

On the other hand, you seem to be arguing that it allows people to walk to a point they've *never* seen or, really, even heard of.

After all, it's only a DC 15 Survival check to "keep from getting lost," so ...

I'm also of the opinion that the way the Survival skill is written is specifically tailored to terrestrial pursuits. After all, everything talks about "Move 1/2 your overland speed" and "avoid natural hazards, like quicksand." I don't think the possibility of it applying to a radically different terrain was particularly well considered when the skill was written. Although the RAW take into account the possiblity of using Survival on another plane of existance entirely (as in, Knowledge (The Planes) grants a +2 synergy bonus on Survival checks on another plane), there's nothing in the RAW that describe exactly what you'd do with such a check. "Avoid getting lost" in the Elemental Plane of Water? "Forage for food and water" on the Astral Plane? "Avoid a natural hazard" on the Negative Energy Plane? What the heck would constitute a "natural hazard" in such a place, and why would your average woodsman know how to avoid it?

And it's odd that you agree with all three of my alternative scenarios. Alternative #1 - Sammel - is a Fighter with maximum cross-class ranks in Profession (Sailor), who therefore knows how to sail a ship and can manage underlings in the daily tasks - in this case, the other PCs.

I'm not proposing any changes to the Survival proficiency - though this thread has convinced me that the skill needs some work, that conversation beyond the scope of this thread.

What I *am* saying is that, even allowing Survival to work at full efficacy - you know where north is, you know where your port is (assuming the PCs sailed from there to begin with) - it still does not solve the problem of making the ship go the right direction in anything remotely resembling an efficient manner.

Rather than seeking to replace the Survival skill with a "last-minute changes," I'm seeking to prevent Survival from running roughshod over a host of other skills. After all, why would you need to Balance when you can just "avoid a natural hazard" like slipping on ice? Why would anyone rely on maps or charts if any half-way competent woodsman can start out in Waterdeep and find his way unerringly to Shou and back with his eyes closed - regardless of his method of travel?

 

[Steverooo]

Finding north, in the real world, is relatively simple, and can be accomplished by a number of means, day or night, regardless of terrain. Even at sea. DC:5 isn't that far off.

As I have pointed out before, however, knowing where north is DOES NOT tell you where you are! If you are blinfolded, flown to parts unknown, and then dumped off the airplane with a working compass (even one corectly set for declination), it will not tell you where you are! What it WILL do, assuming you know how to use it, is to start from where you are and set a course, being able to reverse it to return to where you started (assuming you memorize or record it).

No, Survival (Wilderness Lore, in 3e) will not allow you to sail the ship. That's what Profession (Sailor) is for.

Knowing which way the ship is going is certainly possible with Survival/Wilderness Lore, as are determinations of speed and distance. The ship's Log (not the Captain's Log Book, but the Ship's Instrument) can tell you that, as can simply dropping a floating object off the side of the ship, and observing it... Of course, figuring out how to USE the Ship's Log might require some Knowledge (Architecture & Engineering), or Profession (Sailor)... or maybe just an INT check.

One thing that certainly CAN be done is to determine the Latitude that the ship is at and (assuming the ship is sailing east or west) sail across that Latitude to the opposite shore. This can be done with only the north star visible, and without ANY instruments (to within 1 degree of accuracy). Determining Longitude is tougher, requiring accurate determination of the time of noon, and passage of time (which, in D&D, is done by magic... I forget the spell's name).

Anyway, Profession (Navigator) would be the best way to determine what's around you in the ocean, but with charts, compass, etc., a decent woodsman should be able to keep you from getting lost. Of course, if the GM WANTS you lost, there are always hurricanes, monsoons, typhoons, waterspouts, behemoths with Swallow Whole, etc.

Knowledge (Nature) can also cover prevailing winds and currents, allowing Druids and Rangers to do some good, shiny, day-saving (with the proper rolls).

Pretty much anyone can maneuver a small ship, when in sight of land, and/or when sailing across the ocean on a single Latitude. The Vikings proved that, in their klinker-built longboats (with square sails). A skillful Druid, Cleric of Travel, or Ranger could probably do at least as well.

Need to find north? a shadowstick or lodestone will point the way! (Not to mention an actual compass, or a needle passed through silk, or...) Need to determine your Latitude? All you need is the north star, and your two hands! Need to determine where you are? Knowledge (Geography) will tell you, and Knowledge (Nature) might allow you to deduce it. Knowledge (Nature) will also allow you to determine prevailing winds and currents, for the current season.

Profession (Navigator) is still your best bet, at sea, though... And Profession (Sailor) will be needed to make the ship go. Of course, you could always just kill ALL the pirates, level up, and take a rank...

 

[Steverooo]

Ps

Oh, and by the by... Requiring Survival (Terrain) is pretty ridiculous...

Survival (Great Plains), in the summer, is little different from Survival (Serenghetti Plains), while during the winter, is it pretty similar to Survival (Arctic Tundra). Building shelters from naturally available materials, starting fires, locating water, purifying it, finding edible plants and game, determining which are poison... All these skills are pretty much the same, regardless of terrain and weather.

True, staying warm is more important in Antartica than the South Sea Isles, but both terrains will use the skill (to greater or lesser degree). Having to keep track of which ranks go in which terrain type(s) is just unneeded bookkeeping, for no useful purpose.

But if it's your game... do what you want, as long as your players let you get away with it.

 

[Saeviomagy]

On the other hand, you seem to be arguing that it allows people to walk to a point they've *never* seen or, really, even heard of.

If you have a location where you want to be, survival lets you get there.

If the town (or ruin, or whatever) that you were looking for is not at that location, then you're not lost. You're right where you expected to be, but what you're looking for isn't there. You still know how to get home. You still know how to get to other places that you DO have a line on.

After all, it's only a DC 15 Survival check to "keep from getting lost," so ...

So let's proceed with the strawman arguments, eh?

As I have pointed out before, however, knowing where north is DOES NOT tell you where you are! If you are blinfolded, flown to parts unknown, and then dumped off the airplane with a working compass (even one corectly set for declination), it will not tell you where you are! What it WILL do, assuming you know how to use it, is to start from where you are and set a course, being able to reverse it to return to where you started (assuming you memorize or record it).

No, Survival (Wilderness Lore, in 3e) will not allow you to sail the ship. That's what Profession (Sailor) is for.

Agreed to some level. However note that, for instance, common tasks of riding a horse or driving a wagon are assumed for the entire populace. It's not unreasonable to assume the same level of proficiency with seacraft.

IOW - for normal everyday tasks, no skill ranks is sufficient.

Determining Longitude is tougher, requiring accurate determination of the time of noon, and passage of time (which, in D&D, is done by magic... I forget the spell's name).

For those who care what time it is, it's probably also just done as a learned skill.

Not to mention the fact that your party cleric is a perfect clock in and of himself, what with that "exact time of day" memorising of spells...

Anyway, Profession (Navigator) would be the best way to determine what's around you in the ocean...

I disagree. I think survival is the skill to use, and there's really no need to invent another.

 

[barsoomcore]

Interesting points. Sort of.

It's not unreasonable to assume the same level of proficiency with seacraft.

Of course it's unreasonable. That's the whole point, that it's unreasonable to assume this. As has been pointed out numerous times in this thread, sailing ships were the most complicated machines of their time. It is indeed unreasonable to think that the entire populace is proficient with the most complicated machines around.

And defining Profession (sailor) or Knowledge (navigation) is NOT defining new skills. The skills already exist -- you're just saying, "Here's another field in which these skills apply." I don't expect at the start of a campaign that EVERY field of knowledge and EVERY human endeavour is already defined. There is clearly some specialized knowledge involved in sailing ships that a guy who spends his life camping in the forest isn't going to have. It's not crazy talk to suggest that knowledge ought to be encapsulated in a skill besides Survival.

It seems clear to me that even a fisherman (who spends his life on the waves, albeit in a not very complicated craft) has a very, very different skill set from a hunter (who spends his life in the forest). Do they both just have equal ranks in Survival? I find that kind of a strange suggestion.

The truth is, however, that the right answer is going to depend on how you want your campaign to run. If you want your players to be able to jump to the rigging and tool about in a sailing ship, obviously you can say, "Use Survival to find your way, and um, got some ranks in Use Rope and Balance? Okay, you're fine. Off you go."

I would be fine with a DM who said that. Obviously in this campaign being able to sail a ship isn't the point of anything, so let's just move on. We get to where we're going and continue with the story.

I would also be fine with a DM who said, "Well, your character's never been on a ship before, and knows nothing about its operation. You pretty much stare up at the tangled mass of ropes and sheets and masts and have no idea what to do. The ship is drifting on to a rocky shore, and looks like it's going to crash into the breakers in about four rounds. What do you do?"

Either way is fun. Neither way is stupid. Which is right? Well, it depends, I guess.

 

[Slife]

I'd say that the DC 15 check is what's required to read the lay of the land, the positions of the stars and anything else to get from a point he knows about to another point he knows about.

Lay of the land? This is the ocean. By your argument, someone with survival could be put in a room with no contact to the outside, and then be teleported, room and all, and instantly know where he was. Water is pretty much featureless, and it's doubtful that the PCs would know enough to tell where they were.

I would allow a survival check for something like what happened in the book Sole Survivor

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0807071390/104-1157917-6662355?v=glance&vi=reviews. The PCs could probably keep the ship afloat, and stay alive, and navigation wouldn't be completely beyond them, but controlling the ship would.

A car is FAR less complicated to operate than a boat, and every year thousands die due to accidents in them, and in many places a course is required to be allowed to drive. Not a perfect analogy, but you get the point.

 

[Michael Morris]

Agreed to some level. However note that, for instance, common tasks of riding a horse or driving a wagon are assumed for the entire populace. It's not unreasonable to assume the same level of proficiency with seacraft.

Yes it is unreasonable. An analogy: The average American can drive a car. The average American CANNOT drive a semi-truck. A 3 master floats - and that's where it's resemblance to a canoe or rowboat ends.

I disagree. I think survival is the skill to use, and there's really no need to invent another.

Survival, I will point out, has (or should have - I'm not going to look it up)terrain subskills just like Perform is divided by performance methods. Survival methods for the Desert are well nigh useless at sea.

Also, anyone who thinks finding their way is easy has obviously never been lost.