Charwoman Gene
Adventurer
Why does everyone think the Full Multiclassing Feats and Paragon Ftr/Mage stinks? Is it because you are comparing it to a dedicated class build like the Duskblade? Or Classic BROKEN 1e/2e Multiclassing?
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Sample Character request: Warrior/Mage
- Thread starter Olgar Shiverstone
- Start date
tombowings
First Post
Eladrin tactical warlord, multiclassed into wizard is pretty awesome. If you're OK with playing a warlord, I highly recommend this build. Take Ritual Casting at 2nd, Eladrin weapon training at 4th, and then the multiclass feats. It's a completely viable build synergies quite well. Makes sure your wizard powers are area of effect though, this is important.
JohnSnow
Hero
And, lest we forget, the weapon and armor proficiency is available via feats.
I mean, a wizard is already proficient in cloth armor. Chain is only two feats away - Armor Proficiency (Leather), Armor Proficiency (Chain).
Similarly, as I understand it, a fighter weapon only costs 1 feat. A human wizard could have all those feats by 2nd-level.
I honestly think the traditional fighter/mage, if for example, Dilvish of Selar is any indication, is a fighter type with some spells they can pull out in a pinch. And that's easily accomplished with a fighter, ranger, or warlord and the wizard multiclass feats.
I mean, a wizard is already proficient in cloth armor. Chain is only two feats away - Armor Proficiency (Leather), Armor Proficiency (Chain).
Similarly, as I understand it, a fighter weapon only costs 1 feat. A human wizard could have all those feats by 2nd-level.
I honestly think the traditional fighter/mage, if for example, Dilvish of Selar is any indication, is a fighter type with some spells they can pull out in a pinch. And that's easily accomplished with a fighter, ranger, or warlord and the wizard multiclass feats.
Praeden
Explorer
Charwoman Gene said:
I suspect that some people do indeed want to have characters that are more powerful than everyone else's. 1E/2E multiclasses were stupidly overpowered. A Fighter/Magic-User would generally be one level lower in each class (i.e. 7/7 in a party of 8th level characters), which was not much of a penalty, given the way the maths worked.
I even remember being ridiculed in a 1E campaign for taking a human character (humans could not multiclass back then, only dual-class).
Incidently, I just found an example 4E Fighter with Wizard multiclassing/paragon path.
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?p=8943842
Look for the spoiler near the bottom of the page.
Spoiler: Eladrin Fighter/Wizard 11 (Wizard of the Spiral Tower)
Not sure why this is so hard to understand but I will try to explain. What I want is someone who can fight with a big sword and cast spells also. Not sure what you mean by 'full powered'. If you are referring to game balance, With 4e, it is totally viable without any game balance issues.
For example;
Say a single class fighter and a single class mage each get 5 martial powers
A warrior mage would get 2 of the fighter powers, 2 of the wizard powers and maybe 1 unique power for his own class.
Not sure where the problem is. The WM cannot outdamage a fighter or out blast a (they will be roughly equal), but the fighter will have greater flexibility in martial powers, the wizard will have greater flexibility in spells while the WM will have greater flexibiliy in terms of power types. They will all do comparable damage.
I do not think thats an unfair request, and it will satisfy all WM fans out there without any 'game balance'issues.
Also, anyone claiming 2e multiclassing was 'teh BROKEN111!!!111' has obviously not played the game and has no idea what he/she is talking about. A fighter/mage in 2e was great, yet at the same time never oversahdowed the party fighter or wizard. (at least not in their respective arena's. At higher levels any wizard could outshadow any martial class)
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Olgar Shiverstone
Legend
Since I asked, here's my definition of a warrior-mage: a character who combines the skills and abilities of both warrior and mage, able to fill the iconic roles of each, albeit neither as good a warrior as a pure fighter, nor as good a mage as a pure wizard. Flexibility and utility are inherent to the concept.
Key abilities to me would be:
- Proficient with a number of weapons, including traditional warrior weapons such as swords, bows, or polearms
- Proficient in at least light-to-medium armor, and able to use a shield. Ideally, able to cast spells in armor
- Sufficient toughness to be able to enter melee, if not tough enough to be the party's sole melee combatant
- Access to a mix of physical and knowledge/arcane skill information
- Able to cast spells in combat that can aid in defense, attack a single target, or have area offensive effects
- Able to cast utility spells outside of combat that can assist the party
- Be able to demonstrate the flavor of the above from very early -- ideally first level. None of this "I'm an arcane warrior, but I'm still working on the arcane part" to suddenly "Hey look, spells!". This can't be a "build" that only works at 20th level ... the concept needs to be coherent for the majority of the character's career.
The 1E/2E approach (or B/ED&D Elf class) captures the concept but doesn't balance. In 3E, you could do this with a lot of wonky multiclassing, but really only achieve a good mix of arcane and martial prowess at fairly high level. Some of the purpose designed classes, like duskblade or battle sorcerer, end up being too focused on melee magic or blasting things and lose some out of combat utilitarian uses of spells.
In some ways the 3E bard is this class ... if the bard had a better mix of spells and weapon proficiencies. I'm currently playing a 3.5 character that is a duskblade/wizard/EK which accomplishes most of what I want in the concept, and has had the advantage of spellcasting flavor since the beginning, can certainly doesn't overshadow the party's main melee combatant or dedicated casters ... at the price of awkward multiclassing. So I'm wondering how to approach a similar concept in 4E.
Key abilities to me would be:
- Proficient with a number of weapons, including traditional warrior weapons such as swords, bows, or polearms
- Proficient in at least light-to-medium armor, and able to use a shield. Ideally, able to cast spells in armor
- Sufficient toughness to be able to enter melee, if not tough enough to be the party's sole melee combatant
- Access to a mix of physical and knowledge/arcane skill information
- Able to cast spells in combat that can aid in defense, attack a single target, or have area offensive effects
- Able to cast utility spells outside of combat that can assist the party
- Be able to demonstrate the flavor of the above from very early -- ideally first level. None of this "I'm an arcane warrior, but I'm still working on the arcane part" to suddenly "Hey look, spells!". This can't be a "build" that only works at 20th level ... the concept needs to be coherent for the majority of the character's career.
The 1E/2E approach (or B/ED&D Elf class) captures the concept but doesn't balance. In 3E, you could do this with a lot of wonky multiclassing, but really only achieve a good mix of arcane and martial prowess at fairly high level. Some of the purpose designed classes, like duskblade or battle sorcerer, end up being too focused on melee magic or blasting things and lose some out of combat utilitarian uses of spells.
In some ways the 3E bard is this class ... if the bard had a better mix of spells and weapon proficiencies. I'm currently playing a 3.5 character that is a duskblade/wizard/EK which accomplishes most of what I want in the concept, and has had the advantage of spellcasting flavor since the beginning, can certainly doesn't overshadow the party's main melee combatant or dedicated casters ... at the price of awkward multiclassing. So I'm wondering how to approach a similar concept in 4E.
I think if you want a fighter/mage, you will simply have to wait for the Swordmage, or some sort of Arcane Defender class. I highly suspect there will be one in PHB2 (if not before then) since it is a very popular concept. I do not think any of the current multi-class options will quite satisfy someone trying to play the second edition fighter/mage. You currently can either be a Fighter who dabbles in a little bit of magic, or you can be a Wizard who can sort of swing a sword.
